Welcome to Podcast Awesome, where we chat about icons, design, tech, business, and murdery with members of the Fun Awesome team. I'm your host Matt Johnson and in this podcast I chat with Fawn Awesome founders Travis Chase and Dave Gandy as we reflect on our working dynamics,
strengths and weaknesses within the Fawn Awesome team using Patrick Lancioni's working genius framework. For an introduction to that concept, make sure to check out season's episode number 19.
And today we're talking about the differences in our leadership styles and how we've learned to navigate through frustrations and rely on each other's strengths using the six types of working genius as our guide.
So I thought it might be fun and I might be putting you guys on the spot a little bit here but maybe reflect on each person on the leadership team and what their strength is and where maybe where they've shown up in a project and like really knocked it out of the park or maybe even just where the frustrations are and where you have to navigate how to work together.
You guys have worked together for a long time. You've known each other for a really long time and-- - 35 years. - Yeah. - Fifth grade, I moved down the street from this joker. - Wow, wow, that was a long,
man, hold on. - That's crazy, man. So-- - Yes, you are. You guys see the good, bad, and the ugly and everything in between, but by all accounts,
things are very healthy, fun, awesome, and are working relationships. So Travis, maybe you can reflect a little bit about working with Dave and where you see him really show up in a really great way.
And then what it's like to deal with the frustration, because that's wonder is one of your, one of your working frustrations. - That's the easiest part of me to deal with. Misplaced wonder is one of the easier parts of me to deal with.
- One nice thing about how you pair working geniuses widget with shape up puts batteries in place. That really helps with that. So you can see there's different stages of the process where talents can really shine when you're in the pitching process,
right? Even before the pitching coming up with the pitches like that's all wonder. Invention is like trying to solve a problem with words, making self -code, if you have a pitch part of it, but then when you hand that off to the team,
they get to start solving problems, that kind of stuff. So it's really interesting how, just by happenstance, the two processes we chose, pair really nice together and how we like to get things done. For working genius,
man, there's a lot of examples, but there's always been one extremely that has just locked in my mind on Dave's wonder, was when we were interviewing to get into YC.
There was an exception to the second interview, which doesn't happen a lot. I don't think, but we went in, we interviewed and it was 15 minutes, but it felt like two seconds. And the first interview I thought went pretty well.
And then you go out and you sit, at least is how it used to happen. You go out to sit and the routine goes in and then you leave. They let you go. But then they actually asked us, could we come back later? And so I was like, okay, we're going to second interview.
So that's gotta Not bad. I don't know if it's good, but it's definitely not bad. So we come back for the second interview and One of the creators of woofoo was one of those I like to have a hail of it was one of our mentors in YC.
It was in that interview and I just remember there was a point in which They started not only talking about Business but design in business and how designing this and how the company grows,
how important it is. And it was just like two Wonder Bombs going, "No." I just sat back, I was like, "This?" I just sat back and I was just watching. I was like, "The other two people in the room were doing the same thing." They were just sitting there and they were just observing 'cause it was like,
yeah, and the things, I can't even, at this point, I can't tell you what even the conversation was. It's been so long now, I've forgotten the conversation. I just remember the feeling of, man, that's And the wonder bombs went off and it's something that I can't do.
I just don't have that ability. And so that's, that's where it really shines, where the wonder bomb and where it would pair with my working frustration is, is if I'm in there,
it's okay, we've decided what we're going to do. We have the problem set. I'm in there coding. I have it half of it done. And if they, I don't know if there's actually a case of this happening, I can't think one off the top of my head.
But as an example would be, if I'm in there halfway done, I'm sitting there coding, and they say, you know, what I really think we should do is, and it blows away everything that I've ever done. That's where wonder would get upsetting with my working frustrations are,
what was it? It was E and W. What was your date? Yours were E and-- - I'm straight widget across the board. W, I, working genius,
DG, working competency, and and ET working frustrations. So the one that's a working frustration for both of us, I think is actually E Travis. - E,
yeah. - E is a frustration for both of us. But when it's only two people to start with, it doesn't matter. - It doesn't matter. - Actually at that point, it doesn't come out then. So our complete lack of that didn't even come out there.
I had W as a genius. We both had I as a genius and I think that's really important early on for those two founders that's really helpful because you need to live there a lot.
You don't actually want to be in wonder all the time. You want to be an invention all the time. You keep beating your head against that brick wall back and forth until it finally comes down. You keep going.
D is a working competency for me and a working competency for Travis and that's really important just around like making good choice. So that's great. G Travis had the galvanizing that's a working competency for me.
And then E at that point with only two people is not super crazy important. And it's interesting how when it's just two people, I can actually do the synacity thing really pretty well because like we see the tunnel we see where it needs to go.
And it becomes like you kind of knock everything out of the way and T isn't so much will you work hard and just focus. T is in some ways almost about unknowns and your uncomfortability with just how unknown things are.
And so the way shape -up works is, the hill charts in shape -up I think are utter genius because they're not about the work, they're about what do we know that we don't know. And really you're moving it up to the top of the hill when you've got it figured out.
When you feel like all the things you don't know, You now know you figured them out and then all that's left the easy part is just the hard work Yeah, that's that's been an interesting like it's been it was interesting to see how early on which ones really mattered And which ones it was just nice that we had covered across the board So between all of that we had all five covered between genius and competency and
the only one we didn't have was one that at that point Was it super critical? Yeah, I definitely see in my own life how it's definitely a working frustration and something I have to work on in the E because how I came to development was really just,
I saw it. And so I would read the manuals. I read big, big books and I did all this kind of stuff and I'm not real patient. I always get in trouble with my wife when she's wanting to solve something on the computer and she's asking feature help,
and it doesn't take very long before I'm like, "Here, just let me do it." That's not showing a lot of E in that case, and I recognize that. I may or may not have a similar experience interacting with my wife with technology.
Tell me. You know the answer. Why won't you just tell me? Helping others in. Okay, I have this problem. Hey, we saw that. Oh, here's a link. You're going to read this article. Well, to me, that's how I'm fighting with that,
right? Listen to everybody works and and when I think about it, that's really not a great answer. It's kind of like, oh, you just shoved me off into an article. And I don't think of it that way. Like, it just, I don't have my brains up work that way.
And so I don't think of it like, oh, I'm just passing off an article. I'm like, well, this is how I would learn. You ask a question. That's how I would. Oh, yeah, okay, cool. You gave me an article, sweet. I'll still read it. I'll figure it out. I'll do it. And so it's one of those things that I have to try to be,
I will never be good at it. I don't think I just miss things, things have to be pointed out to me. - Yeah, it can feel, that's not the intention at all. - It's not my intention, it's just, I don't see it. - I don't know, I would just go Google it.
I don't know, I would just go Google it first and then I'll, have you done that? - Yeah. - That's not a very enabling behavior. - Yeah, no. - It's just not, right? I'm gonna take full ownership of that.
That's not somebody else who's at fault, that's me, right? That's completely me in that case. But it's of my working frustrations. And I think that's where, yeah, and we were working with Rob and Zori,
they had - I was going to say with Rob, yeah. Yeah, they had the higher E, and we recognized that. We knew that before we had a way to express it in working geniuses. We saw that,
and we were definitely like, yep, we want that characteristic in people that are going to lead teams, because as we've grown, it's become more important. It's more important for folks and for good healthy teams to have that a lot better Yep,
and I see to the way that say Jory and I work together as I'm high on the wonder and invention part and He's like really high on tenacity and so he's really good at making sure That's a good thing to have and a guy who cranks out tens of thousands of icons Exactly exactly maps very well.
And so when I'm creating or we have, if there's like a campaign as an example, there are loose ends that I might not see, but Jory with his tenacity is,
oh, we've got a few more things to button up here. I'm like, oh, right, right, right. Okay. And so having that encouragement from him and when we work together, we can just create great stuff.
And this is why all of those six are important to have on to have on a leadership team. It's not just one. It's not just the other. It's that all six are actually really, really important to have if you want to be able to see everything.
You already believe that you're right about everything and you know better than everybody else. Hey, you're set. You don't need anybody else. You don't even, you know what? You're going to find out. You don't even need customers because you won't have them.
And I think it's important, too, to not avoid the frustrations, right? You don't have to do them all day long, right? Because then you would be frustrated and it wouldn't be some place you'd want to be.
But I think it's important to know the things that do frustrate you, but then exercise those muscles a little bit. Because there's a lot of times a day he wants me up there and wondering with him and I,
okay, I just, all I need to do is put myself in that mindset. Okay. We're wondering now. Don't try to solve problems. We're just wondering now. We're seeing all the things around situation and it's hard for me because my brain is just,
why are different? We're all different. So it's great. And so I just have to put myself in the mindset of, okay, I got to exercise the wondering muscle. But then afterwards, then I need to make Okay, now I gotta go do, I gotta do some inventing or I gotta do some math,
'cause it helps balance. But you don't wanna avoid those frustrations or you'll never develop. How about discernment? Who's really good with discernment? - So discernment, so let's see.
So none, let's see, of Jory has it as a working competency. Travis and I have it as a working competency. Between Corey and Lindsay, Lindsay has it as a working genius.
Yeah discernment is her working genius. That was really cool to see because she was talking about how She kept saying she felt a little bit called out as a designer that she wasn't like in wonder and invention as a top genius And then we talked through that it's like no somebody who fits into a role and is really good at their job that has something That's a little outside the box They're gonna see something that
somebody who has a stereotypical genius in a specific role, they're going to see things differently than other people want. I thought that was really neat talking through that with her.
Of all the working geniuses, we already have a quite healthy representation in WI's. So probably good that she's a little different. Exactly, right? And what's interesting too,
hiring her was the first time we ever had a full open rec and there were 500 people that applied for that job. And we didn't give her that job. She took that job.
She stole that job from everybody else who applied and she killed it. But what's interesting is when we hire, we don't tend to think about which working geniuses do we need. We look at the person, we think of who this individual is,
but it's interesting how it turns out after the fact. It's really, really interesting because what is needed in that role right now is a lot of discernment.
Travis and I, we can do invention, we can get it everywhere, and we can have a decent job on the discernment piece, but having somebody else there, like where it's a genius, to be able to just like really ring it out and see are we sure.
That's actually, I feel like that's such a critical piece of design. You can draw pictures all day and come up with ideas all day, and those are great, but are they good ones? When we say design,
it's not just look and feel, design is how it works. It's so important to look at and be like, does this work well? And the number of times that you find objects in the real world where no one spent enough time thinking,
yes, we can, but is it a good idea? Can anyone tell how to open this door now? It's really pretty. But can anybody figure out how this faucet Is it up down? Which way is hot?
I don't know. Let's just run it for a minute and see which way is hot How do I increase the flow? Mm -hmm. Just mess around. It's pretty though. Isn't it? Yeah, it looks really cool It looks really pretty.
I bet you somebody want to design a word for that faucet Thank Brian's working genius of the start man.
Yeah, - Yeah, if I remember correctly. - That's great. Yeah, I can definitely see that. When we're all working as a team and a snuggle and there's a big discussion, you can definitely see that discernment piece pop out when he speaks up.
You can see the wheels turn and he knows how to pick out a good idea or poke holes a little bit to see. - You know, Brian has always been a really, really critical part of when we write the scripts for the Kickstarter videos and the product videos that we've made over the years,
Brian has been like such a critical piece of that workflow, because the point at which you might have a script in a decent spot, what you really need is you actually need somebody to poke holes in it,
right? You need somebody to be like, how is this going to be misinterpreted? Right? You actually need somebody to put themselves in those shoes. And actually the Milton character in our original video basically came out of that process.
we saw that like the value of Milton is just straight up discernment, right? Milton sees all the problems coming and oh my goodness. You've changed the recipe,
didn't you? No, Milton, it's the same open source recipe you know and love. You've changed the recipe, didn't you? No, Milton, it's the same recipe. Why are you embarrassing me? I got a client right now.
Come on, all right? Like "You changed the recipe." We didn't put in Milton because he's a bad guy. We put in Milton because he's a good guy, because he's such an important, and that's why his character continues to be in every single video,
but he's such a critical piece of that process in trying to come to a good place in the same way that my boss that was all discernment, discernment is so amazing at the right part when you've had enough wonder and invention to lead it.
So often in the room I was just, And we just spend like five minutes just throwing out dumb ideas because right now we're going with the first dumb idea that we haven't been able to find any big problems. And really like usually it's amazing how like another five minutes at the right time can end up with a totally different solution,
a better solution that actually is cheaper to implement most of the time that's just sitting there. And for the 20 % of the time that it's not is five minutes really that much of a risk with the right three or four people in a room at that point.
As a matter of fact, the risk is how can you not have the right people in the room and spend the time on that. And that's why these are all so critical at different pieces along the way. The differences between people are how in our own deficiencies,
that's how they get covered over. We work with other people that have those as geniuses instead of frustrations. And that's how we all together work better together. It's not just nonsense that sounds good because it's a slogan,
it's because it actually is real and this is how it works. If you don't know how that works, it's such a key piece of figuring it out to recognize that everyone is different and has different things that they are great at and you don't already see people that way.
But you know what? I've worked around literally some of the most talented humans on earth and I mean that from a capability standpoint. I did undergraduate at MIT. I've been around the startup scene for a very long time.
I've known literally some of the most intelligent folks in the entire world. And it's weird how often so many of them are missing an entire part of their character around humility.
They've always been right. They've always seen themselves as right. And so when they walk into the room, they're the one who's right. Why do I need anybody else? I can do this all by myself. Why do I need anybody else? It's a perspective. It's completely wrong,
But it's easy to be convinced that it's right. We are amazingly good at fooling ourselves, especially around our own capabilities, our own importance, and our own intelligence. Just a couple of people that are very highly skilled can get a whole heck of a lot done.
And yeah, like you said, why would you need somebody else? But man, think about how much more you could get done if you had a whole team that could speak into that, and there was some humility,
and you'd learn how to listen to each other. This is the reason for the relentless curiosity through life if you don't understand that there's an infinite amount You don't know and that's not the daily assumption and how you act Then the world is a very weird place around what we don't know you could go your entire life Without knowing a great many things that are very true.
There's a whole new generation of people There's a whole generation of older folks and it's amazing how much information is lost between generations. Really important things get completely lost.
And along the way with technology, we've replaced some very good, very real things with poor imitations. - Thanks to Travis and Dave for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom on how to best use the six types of working genius as a framework for helping teams work better together.
And if you liked this we're going to be talking to other members of the Faunt Awesome team, including shoelaces Lindsey Miller, as well as Faunt Awesome's Jory Raphael and Rob Maddoll to get their take on their working geniuses.
If you like this podcast, we'd love it if you take a minute to give us a review and Five Stars is always appreciated as it helps us get discovered. This podcast is produced and edited by yours truly Matt Johnson.
The podcast awesome theme song was composed by Ronnie Martin. The musical interstitials were composed by Zack mom and audio mastering was done by Chris and at lemon productions.
