Living the Dream: Dan's Creative Journey

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Welcome to Podcast Awesome. Where we chat about icons, design, tech, business, and nerdery with members of the Font Awesome team. And every so often we bring on a friend that is outside of the awesome verse. And today we have the great privilege of speaking with none other than Dan Cedarholm. He's the legendary designer.

Type, tinker author, co-founder of Dribble, and he makes all kinds of really fun quirky merch that, uh, that I personally enjoy. We talk about finding creative joy later in life building. Merch just because it's fun and solving tiny puzzles through type and icons and, uh, yeah, maybe inventing a dice game along the way.

I don't know. this is a two part episode and I am joined by Jory. Raphael. And, uh, we have a delightful chat with Dan and you can look forward to the second installment two weeks from now.

Dan's story's a really great reminder that, um, and we're big fans of this, that sometimes you need to spend a little bit of time. Not doing your job to kind of refresh yourself creatively, and we get into some of that. So without further ado, please welcome Dan Cedar Home.

 Dan, you're all, you're doing so many cool things like, uh, living the dream. If I, if I can say.

Dan: well, I, thanks, uh, I appreciate that. Um, it, it may appear that way, I guess. Um. I'm definitely making things. Um, and whether they're cool or not is, is, uh, is is up for debate and, and whether or not they're sound business decisions or, or, or that kind of thing is, [00:02:00] is is sort of up for debate too. But, but I, I am, yeah.

I'm feel right now I'm feeling fortunate to have some flexibility and time and, and space and, uh, to, to actually, yeah, just make some, like, make things that I just wanna see and, um, and actually follow through with it and, and get 'em out there. And, um, and so that's been fun. I mean, it's been a lot, it's been a lot of fun.

Uh, I, I definitely, um, hopefully it, it, it, it that comes off like, at least, at least he's having fun doing this, you know, like,

Jory: I

Dan: I dunno who's, I dunno who's

Jory: me, it comes

Dan: at least it's fun. Okay.

Innovative Typeface Promotions

Jory: I mean, you said you were, um, I don't know, you and I had a conversation a while ago, but like, just the coming up with ideas for just little promotional items for the different typefaces you're building, like the, the dice, you know, you, you came up with an entire game for one of them.

Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The vowels of hell. Yeah, I know. But that, see that, and it's funny because I, I feel like, um, at 51, uh, I've finally found like what I want to do. It's kind of weird. Um,

Matt: There's hope for me. Thank you, Dan.

Dan: Has hope for, if anyone's younger than that, uh, uh, don't worry. You can, you can hit it at some point. Um, because there's, yeah.

The, the, the whole typeface thing is, is sort of, uh, it's a funny way into it because, um, I've always loved design and, uh, I've loved type and been a fan of it. Never thought I could create fonts, you know? But. Finding that. And then I just love the rhythm of, of these little puzzles to solve. Like, and we've talked about this jewelry I think before, like, and it's similar to icon design, right?

These, these little, um, puzzles that you can solve that are like very contained and not overwhelming if you look at one at a time, right? [00:04:00] Um, and that's sort of like what making a typeface is like for me, but, but all the other stuff that goes around it, uh, like the promotional stuff you were mentioning that it, it's because of all of that ecosystem around it is why I'm having so much fun with this because it, I'm not just sitting here drawing letters all day.

I am like, um, the, the promotion and everything around it is just as much fun for me. Um, thinking about creating products like stupid shirts and stickers and, and and dice and whatever else I can come up with around the theme of this, this typeface. It kind of like. They're like little mini launches every, every quarter or whatever, and that, that, that kind of cadence is, is really, I'm really liking that cadence right now at this point in my life.

Exploring Passion Projects

Jory: we have a, uh, a kind of a, I don't know if this is kind of a core belief at fa awesome. But something Dave, our CEO says constantly to us and tries to hammer it in, but the idea of spend the right amount of time not doing your job and, you know, he says it over, which is a funny thing for our CEO to say, but I think at its core it's like we have this.

We have a product, we have these icons. We, you know, we've now expanded into some other things, but that's the core of the business. And if you don't take a little bit of time, like exploring other things or trying new crazy ideas, like it's gonna get boring and it's gonna get stale. And a lot of times those ideas can loop back around and become something pretty cool.

Um, you know, I think actually even write this podcast in some ways, like Matt, like just, this is, we're doing this now and it was just a, on a whim.

Matt: Yep. And it makes me think about how brands, um, it all, it all works together. 'cause Dan, like you make these like silly shirts. You have, you have like your University of college shirt that [00:06:00] you're wearing and that just automatically connected to me when I was looking at the merch that you had on your site.

And it's like, it's related to fonts obviously. It's, it's a funny and you just, I'm assuming you just did it. For the sheer joy of it. I, I think in your newsletter you said you were, uh, your kid was starting to put applications out there for college and sort of the next life phase. I'm like, oh, this idea occurred to you.

And it just, when you see that stuff, you go, oh yeah, Dan, the font guy. Oh, his thoughts are awesome, man. That guy's so funny. You know? And it all, it all just like works. Um, and I love, like, Jo, kind of going on what you said, there's also encouragement of, if you have merch ideas and you want to create a physical object, we have like full reign to, I mean, within reason, like go and create it.

Like go do it. You know? And I love that.

Dan: that's huge. I mean, that, that, that makes so much sense from a, for, to me, obviously as a business expense. Like it's all, you know, like promotion's tough, right? I mean, like, getting your brand vibe out there to people. It, it's, it's getting, it's getting hard, harder and harder and exhausting. And, um, everyone's doing the same things.

And, and so any way you can differentiate yourself too and show your, your personality is, is huge. Um, you know, it's like, uh, like the, the, uh, what was it, the. Um, I was gonna call him ROIs because that's his handle.

Jory: Noah. Yeah.

Dan: Noah. Geez. It's so funny 'cause when you, when you only interact with people online, mostly online, it's like hard, it's hard to remember people's real names.

Okay. So Noah, uh, doing the, um, the keyboard, mechanical keyboard assemblies as part of font awesomes, I mean, that's, that's [00:08:00] brilliant. Like, and, and, and you're talking thinking of like physical objects and how they, how they fit into promotions. It's not just like, let's stick our logo on a mug and sell it.

It's like, how does this fit with what we're doing in a fun way? I think, you know, and that's kind of what you were getting at Matt, I think. Um, how can it, how can it convey your true personality, I guess? Um, you know,

Jory: there's also an intangible nature to it, right? Like, you, you don't, I mean, I think we can probably objectively say that the, our keyboard set that we made, like it's not, you know, it's, we did it for fun. We spent way too much time on it. Um, you know, uh, you know, even if our sales of it were like through the roof, I don't know if it would recoup the actual time we spent on it.

Um, stressing over yellows for the key caps and, you know, various things like that. But it was fun. It, you know, on one level it kind of allowed some members of the team to like deep dive into an area. They, let's learn about plastics and like, let's do all this. And maybe that, that information will come in handy in the future.

And, um. Then like, yeah, Noah, like, yeah, we wanted to do some more live streaming. We're like, well, you know, Noah's really into keyboards and we've got this set. Let's, like, let's do a live stream of putting it together and, um,

Dan: That's great.

Jory: yeah. So,

Dan: It's like this, uh, it's also like gateways to little, uh, learning like it's gateways to learn. Like for me, I just love learning how to do things and how to make different things and, you know, um, and, and so if I can somehow tuck that into, I. Quote unquote business angle. You know, even if it's not, like you say, like, I, I'm not, I'm not making a ton of money on merch or anything by any means.

I'm like probably losing a lot of money on it, [00:10:00] to be honest, because it's just one of those things that's difficult to, to have a, a steady income with if you're not marketing like crazy with it. But, um, but, but that's not really the point. And I think that's what you were getting at with, with the keyboards too.

Like, the point is you're, you're, you are learning something new. You're learning about something different that you might not be doing day to day that makes it interesting. It gets you sort of re re-energized about what you're doing and, um, and then it becomes like, um, another way of storytelling your, your brand, right?

Um, that's, that's also like, it, it's also genuine. Um, you know, you can tell that Noah's passionate about. The keyboard stuff, which is so cool. Uh, I, you know, I, that's what I think I like as I get older. I'm like, I like, I love finding people that are just really passionate about these very specific things

Jory: Mm-hmm.

Dan: and 'cause it gets me excited about it.

And, um, and then I, I can't, I don't have the attention span of to actually focus on one of those things, but I can, I just love, uh, trying new things and learning them, Well, you, I mean,

of it.

Jory: it feels like you are, it feels like you are kind of focusing on one thing, at least right now, um, with the typefaces and, and you get to, what's beautiful about them is like the next typeface can be completely different and you can try out different techniques, et cetera, et cetera. But like you're, you're kind of have this through line and then these little tangents where you're building out the little swag or stuff, but like,

Dan: Yeah.

Jory: there's an anchor to, to the typefaces.

The Evolution of Icon and Typeface Design

Jory: And I'm super curious, I haven't talked to you a ton about this, but like, where is, what was the first typeface you made? Was it part of simple type co? Is it like one of the ones that's available now or were you like, what, what

Dan: Well, so yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. [00:12:00] Um, and you're absolutely right. The, the tight faces are the anchor and that, that is the main focus and, and for sure. Um, so, you know, going back like, uh, actually it comes down, it comes back to icons. Funny enough, this is like such an appropriate, uh, venue to, to talk about this.

But, um,

Jory: We got him, Matt. We got

Dan: time ag he got, we knew, we knew we

Matt: yeah. We, we roped you in Dan.

Dan: I, I like, this was, uh, I don't know how many years ago this was, honestly, off the top of my head. I, I mean, probably more than 15 years ago maybe. Uh, I loved making icons and I had a little icon, icon shop, S-H-O-P-P-E.

Jory: Shoppy.

Dan: shoppy?

Yeah. Icon Shoppy. And this was back in the bitmap days. Uh, and you know, I was just one of those things, like I wanted to, I loved, uh, pixel art and wanted to make icons and sell them. And so I, I sort of tried my hand at that. But one of the sets was I called Chameleon, and it was, um, you know, basically mono monochrome icons that you could sort of change the color behind the background color so that it would create a set that, you know, was in the color that you wanted or whatever.

And I did some programming around that. It's kind of a ridiculous project. But anyway, uh, very primitive, eight bit style icons. But, um, I, I was like, this should be a font, like the, I, like, I can create the, the letters and the alphabet and everything and, and, and then add, also add as alternate characters like the, the icons from the set, which is a very small limited set.

But anyway, so I tried my hand at, at, uh, making this font on my own. With, uh, whatever was the tool at the time. I think it was, I wanna say it was font lab I think it was called, which I think is still around today. I'm sure it's much better today than it was, but back then, I didn't know what the hell I was doing and I, I managed to get a working [00:14:00] font exported and, and sell it.

And it, it, it, but the experience was so, uh, demeaning to me. It was sort of like def or deflating I suppose. Like, it was like, this wasn't fun at all. I had no idea what, you know about, um, how this tool worked. And the tool was very archaic and, and, and difficult. And it just seemed like the barrier to entry was very high for someone that doesn't, someone likes to draw things but doesn't know how to, you know, doesn't know about type.

And so that really turned me off on making any more fonts. Uh, and so fast forward. To the pan around the pandemic time, uh, maybe 2 20 19, I guess 2019 maybe. Um, 2020. I, I kept seeing this sign around town that said vault alarm on it. This, this cool vintage lettering that is on banks, new England banks around here.

And, uh, it's this old box on the side of a, of a, of the building. And like, I would always see that, like walk into work or whatever. And, uh, I've always said like, that's gotta be, that should be a typeface. Like that should be a font. It should be like, I just love the letters. I'd love to see like what the rest of the alphabet would look like.

And so that was, I finally was like, you know, screw it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna just give this a shot again. Um, and I think at the time Glyphs was, had been out for a while, but it was still kind of new-ish and um. I think it was on a podcast actually with the Hood Hood Sisters chutzpah. They were talking about glyphs and they were raving about how easy it was to use and, and how intuitive it was.

And so I gave that a shot and I was like, oh, this is, the tool really changed. It changed my life in a way, I guess if you think about it, in terms of work life anyway, because I immediately, it really immediately made sense to me in how [00:16:00] to create a workable font. Um, and so hats off to glyphs for creating something really great.

And I know there's other tools that are probably easier to use too out there. Um, but I, I just, I loved Gly and sort of ran with it and, and was able to finish that volatile arm font. So that was my long, long story. Long answer to your question, Jo, about what was the first font? That was the first one, and it's still on the site for sale today.

Um,

Jory: Well, I love that you brought up.

Dan: Yeah.

Jory: I, I would love that you brought up Chameleon because, um, I had my little to-do list of things that not to-do. List my little list of things I wanted to talk to you about, because

Dan: Oh, cool.

Jory: was the first, I think it was the first icon set I ever purchased.

Dan: Really? No.

Jory: years ago.

I have like, I have one of those weird sense memories of like, I remember being at my desk, like in the, I had my office space in Middlebury, Vermont, and I remember being at my desk and I remember getting it. I used it, uh, I used them on a business card for a while, um,

Dan: No way. Oh, man.

Jory: Uh, I paired it with, um, Jason Tkes, uh, silk screen typeface, which was also kind of a pixel font.

Dan: Yes. Wonderful stuff. Yeah. I love

Jory: I, yeah, and I think it was, you know, this, I don't want to like have any revisionist history here, but it, I really do think it was one of the inspirations for me to be like, oh, you can create your own icon set and like. Put it out there in the world and like it, you know, it got me super interested in kind of that world and like eventually that led to me doing my own Icon Setss.

And um, uh, and then you and I connected at one point there and, but like, like now I'm working for an icon company and, you know, it was all I, you know, I can pinpoint some of that thread way back there.

Dan: that's wild. Um, to hear. Actually, I don't know. I, I don't think I've heard that from you before, so that's wild. Uh, you know what's [00:18:00] crazy is that you, that might have been your first icon set. You bought your icon set, symbolic icons. The, the fir is probably the last icon set I've bought because I think I've told you this before, but I honestly, it's the only one I go to when I'm doing anything.

Uh, I have it as shapes in Photoshop 'cause I, nor, a lot of times I use Photoshop still for everything. And, um. It's just like, it was like, uh, to me that set, it was like, oh, he did it. Like he, he made the, he made the icon set like that because it's like exactly the, I don't know. It's like the, I, I just looked at it and be like, this is what I would want to make if I could do this and flesh out the whole thing.

This is how I'd want them to look like. And, and, and so I was like, I, I'm, it's done. I, I don't need to do this and this. I'm just gonna use these now. And, uh, I'm sure you have many more, uh, that are in fa Awesome. And that are probably, you know, related or maybe, I don't know if the whole set is Well, that'd be interesting question for you, but, um, like the, the lineage of symbolic to fun, awesome kind of thing,

Jory: I mean, symbolic cons is still kind of floating out there on its own.

Dan: Okay. On its own.

Jory: available for purchase. Um. There we talked about, kind of porting it into font. Awesome. And we might at some point do that still with, now that we have our new kind of these pro plus icon packs that are kind of slightly their own thing.

Um, but, uh, you know, if anything it became just a, uh, uh, a stepping stone to getting better at Icon Design. And so, like even if something in font Awesome today shares some visual similarities with what, what was in symbolic icons, it's more, um, more intentional, more, you know, there's a lot of accidental stuff in those early days of, of teaching myself how to design icon sets and like Oh, okay. [00:20:00] Um.

Dan: I love that though. I love the, um, I mean, this is what I love about type design too, the imperfectness and being okay with things being not perfect and, um, and having that human quality to it. Um, not, not that symbolic on is imperfect at all, but I just mean like, you know, I, I think that embracing that can.

Potentially in inspire someone to be like, oh, I, I, I'm, it's not gonna be perfect, but I can, I can do this too. I can create a, a typeface that's, that's, uh, that's not perfect. And, and maybe lean into that. Maybe that's why it's different. And same with icons and,

Jory: Well, if it's not, if you, if you create something perfect from the get go, like what? The, the, you're not gonna learn from it. 

Dan: Dan, I could go back to, and I'm sure you could do the same with your, your typefaces, but I could go back to almost every single icon I've ever created and, and be like, I could make this better.

Jory: Like, you know, there's just,

Dan: absolutely.

Jory: you have to be okay. Yeah. You have to be okay with being like, it's good enough, you know, or,

Dan: You have to let go at some point. Um, and because. Otherwise nothing would get done. And um, no, you're right. And I think the problem is the older you get, the more work you have behind you to look back at and be like, oh God, that, that was, I can't believe that. Um, um, and, uh, some of, some of the early, like some of the early web design stuff that I still like, is the out there floating around?

It's just, it's sort of embarrassing. But, but you're right. You, you have to do that to learn and move on and grow and that's all part of the journey.

Jory: Yeah. But that there, you know, and there's, there's a nostalgia to some of that too. I mean, I, in my head too, I can also like. I mean, are we, well, first of all Dan, you know, website [00:22:00] designer, you know, one of the original CSS gurus, uh, typeface designer, company starter, et cetera, et cetera. Like book publisher.

I've got some of your books back here.

Dan: Uh, oh, right.

Jory: uh,

Dan: Awesome.

Jory: in my head I still have, what was it, uh, Bulletproof, um,

Dan: Oh, Bulletproof web

Jory: the full name. Bulletproof Web Design. I have the picture of the little, your original little Simple Bits logo, which, you know, the little, little stacked, stacked, uh, blocks there in my head. Um, so yeah, you know, it's amazing.

You, the, the, the body of work is both a, I don't know if it's a burden, but it can also, it's also, you know, something upon which you sit that can bring you to higher levels.

Dan: Yeah, no, you, you true tr

Jory: metaphor, but.

Dan: No, no, I, I hear you though. Uh, and I, I, you know, I'll get more people Will, will, if they email me about a font that a lot of times it'll be like, by the way, I, your books taught me CSS and led me to. Where I'm at in my job or something like that, you know, like, and, and I'm like always blown away by that because, um, I guess I don't, I guess I'm one of those people that doesn't like to look back a lot, you know, like I'm, I'm like, um, what I'm doing today is kind of more important and going forward and, and so it's, but it's nice to be reminded like, oh yeah, that was this, this thing that, that I've completed and I was able to complete and people appreciated it.

And, um, that, that means a ton. Um, and, uh, it's all part, again, it's part of, part of the journey and part of like, not, you know, not, not being afraid to, to put yourself out there. And, um, any, anything I've done like, you, like the books and, or, or, or, or, or companies or, um, even client work or everything is [00:24:00] like, I didn't know what the hell I was doing and. Had no training in any of this stuff. Um, and so I'm just, so, I'm, I'm glad that I was, and I get hung up on a lot of things, but I didn't get hung up on enough of them to not put myself out there creatively, I guess is, is what I'm thankful for because, um, I've got big time imposter syndrome, but I guess it wasn't extreme enough to prevent me from trying to do all these things, you know?

Um, and, and not all of them are successes. Like some of them fail, like, and that's fine. 

Inspiration from Kuda Partners

Dan: And that's part of the, that's part of the fun too, honestly. I remember there was like a, this is a long time ago, like Kuda Partners, um, if you remember, like Jim Udall, a big, big, uh, influence on me, big inspiration to me or earlier, earlier in my career, but.

And now they're running field notes, which I think they've kinda shifted all their attention onto, rightfully so. But, uh, he always, he talked about, uh, how in the earlier days of Kuda partners, you know, they were kind of similar in that they would do different things. They'd make little films, they'd make products, they'd do logos, they would do client work.

And that was sort of like, that was kind of like, uh, what I wanted to do is like all these different things, not just one thing. And he would always say, yeah, we don't know what we're gonna do next. And he is like, we can't wait for the next failure, or something like that. I'm, I'm botching the quote, but it was like, you know, will you see what we do next?

It's probably gonna be horrible. You know, we can't wait for that because it's gonna blow up and burn up. And, and we're gonna, then we're gonna know that, well, we tried that and now we can move on to the next thing. That's gonna be awesome. You know? Um, I think that's a great attitude to have about, about it.

The Creative Process and Failures

Dan: And making typeface is kind of like that. It's like. Everything is all into this, this one typeface design for me, this [00:26:00] is, this is my process. And then, and then the promotion and all that goes into it and it's exciting. And then it goes out and then, and it's like, okay, let's start again and like, licks, make this one even more fun or different or whatever.

And it's sort of like this cycle. And I'm sure the same could be said with, with icons, right? Icon sets and styles and, or even just a single icon, right? It's like, alright, let's how do, what's a different take on like add this to your calendar or something, you know, whatever it is. Right? You like how like just the thought process of that is, is fascinating to me.

Like something so simple and you only got this little canvas to, to do it in. And how, what's a different way of telling this story? That's, and that's interface design. It's fun, but.

Jory: yeah, I mean that, well you mentioned two things that I wanna,

Dan: Hmm,

Jory: my little hooks into. The first is that, w what you said about could all partners, which is super interesting is Fe I think Field Notes was one of their little side things. Like it was one of their little experiments and now it's, now it's everything.

Like, and there's so many examples of that where something you just try out, then suddenly that shifts everything and um, you know, so who knows, maybe, maybe vows of hell will catch on and then suddenly you're a game designer. You know, like these are all,

Dan: Right. And I love that. I love like that. If that happened, that would be wonderful. Um, and, and I, I don't think it will, but, but if it did, like it would be great. And, uh, you know, although someone did message me and said, can you make a version that says vowels of heck? Because like,

Jory: Well, there you go.

Dan: I, and I thought, God, I, I didn't even think of that.

I mean, I, I'm just kind of loosey goosey with words and I, I, I didn't think that would be offensive to some people. But anyway. That's a tangent. Um, but to get back, to, get back to, I would love that. And that's kind of how a lot of things like Dribble for instance, uh, that was a whole [00:28:00] accidental thing. And

Jory: yeah,

Dan: and you, like you said, field Notes was definitely a side project for Kudo and drop one, and then it be, and now it's like, it's like a large company that's, you know, everyone has their notebooks, so you're right.

I'd love that sort of accidental, like throw stuff at the wall, see what sticks, kind of, um, entrepreneurialism. Entrepreneurialism,

Jory: yeah. 

Constraints and Creativity

Jory: I mean, that's the, that goes back to like, you know, spend the right amount of time not doing your job. 'cause you never know what's gonna hit. You're gonna stretch yourself. And I dunno, I think there's also a, 'cause I'm not trained like for any of this stuff, I kind of figured it out as I went. And I think that there is a certain amount of, um, if you don't know what you can't do, then like, you're just like, all right, I guess white.

Oh, I shouldn't have done that. Who, you know, who knows? You're just gonna, you're gonna, you'll stumble your way along, you're gonna learn new stuff. Some of it's gonna be good, some of it's not gonna be good. Um, my first icon set that I designed like the icon before, the, what ultimately became symbolic icons, but like the first time I actually designed icons was, uh, like I designed them in inches.

Like

Dan: Yeah. Right,

Jory: an illustrator in inches. I didn't have really, in my head, had no concept or really even thought about designing them in textiles. And it's 'cause I was designing for, um. I used to work for a company that did a lot of wayfinding design, so I would design 'em for signs and signage. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna just, this is the metric that I'm used to.

Uh, but I was like, this can be a set. And so I think the, one of the first things I uploaded to Dribble was those icons. But like, I, the, the ruler in Illustrator or in Photoshop was set to inches when I designed it. And I was like, oh, these aren't Pixel perfect. Oh, what is this thing? 

Matt: just, just listening to you guys riff, like I'm, I'm making all these connections to sort of my own creation [00:30:00] over the years. I have a, in a previous life I was in a band and was touring around and stuff. I was just talking to Don Clark from Invisible Creature. He's a, he's a buddy from

Dan: Yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah, I would love their work. Yeah.

Matt: this joke never gets old to me, but, you know, the guy that works at the guitar counter the lead guy, um, at Guitar Center, uh, that is like the, he's, he's the main honcho behind the guitar counter. never want to go to that guy's show because. He just, he knows too much.

He, like, he, he knows how to shred all of the scales. His, he, like musicianship wise is a total virtuoso, but like, his band is horrible. And the point was, and then, and then Don Yeah. And then Don followed up with, oh yeah, yeah, I've got this theory that kind of goes along those lines. He said, uh, and this is totally off the rails, but I promise I'll bring it back.

He's like, you know, Metallica are so popular because Lars Ulrich can't play the drums very well.

Matt: You know, and, and then we laughed. And the, the whole, the whole point was like, when you have built-in constraints to what it is that you do, you can create something really interesting and human that somebody who is super knowledgeable and maybe has a theory behind everything that they do.

Um, it just is sort of lifeless, you know? And so when I hear you guys talking about, I didn't know what I was doing, I created this thing, I put it out in the world, but I keep moving forward and I'm learning from mistakes. And the thing is, is that those, the constraints that we have, and, and the point that Donald's making too, is that he, I mean, he's such a humble guy.

Like he and Ryan are just like, I can't believe that we get to do what we get to do. Like we were just joker dudes, like back in the day that were in [00:32:00] punk rock bands that like design, you know, and Don even reflects on, I went to community college for like illustration and he is like, and, and, and graphic design.

He is like, he felt like he was so limited in his knowledge. Like, I don't, I can't do this. I, I, I just know that I like to draw and how am I gonna do this? But then they, they kept like walking through open doors and new opportunity, new opportunity. So I. He's the most humble guy. He is like, I don't know what I'm doing, man.

I just, I just like to create cool stuff, you know? And so when I hear you guys reflecting on this and saying, you know, you have this body of work and you started with constraints of knowledge or constraints of tools that you were using or whatever,

Jory: skill. In my case,

Matt: well, yeah, sure. But it, you know, to put it like in, in, in the musical category, again, the Ramones are amazing.

They, they couldn't play their instruments very well,

 but like, they created something in their own little sandbox that totally resonates,

Dan: totally. Yeah.

Matt: And so I think about, uh, you know, creators that sort of, they don't even have to understand that, but somebody who's willing to continue to keep working, um, even though they may have certain constraints, they're, they can create amazing stuff.

And the constraints are probably a really important part of that. Process, I would think.

Dan: Oh yeah, a hundred percent. That, that resonates deeply with me. Um, probably, I, I have a music background as well, so like, you know, punk rock and, um, indie music and like that, the, the parallels between that and, and constraints, right? Constraints of like. Even strings. Like, you know, like I'm thinking for some reason I just thought of, uh, band Morphine.

They were Boston Band that, that, uh, the [00:34:00] bass player tragically passed away, but he, he played that two string bass and then they had baritone sax and drums and that was it. Right. And it sounds like how can they, but, right. Great band. Like, um, and, and there's a, there's a ton of, of examples like that, right?

With Ramones. That's a perfect example. Like, you know, three chords and some of the greatest songs, memorable songs you can think of, and just the energy. And so those constraints, like, that's been such an important thing. And I hadn't actually put that together with knowledge though, like you did. That's, that's really interesting.

Like maybe I, I like doing things, jumping into things that I don't know how to do because it's. Automatically a constraint right off the bat, right? So like, I don't have all these choices that I can, oh, I could do this or this. It's like, I don't even know about those choices yet. So like, I'm only trying to get like this line to appear on screen or something, you know, like I'm thinking back to when I was trying to learn HTML and, and, and sort of on a and, and just, oh, if I change this character, oh, that changed.

Now it's bigger or what, you know, whatever that is. But, so I think you're right. Like I think maybe sometimes not, and I'm not advocating like not educating yourself on anything, but, but uh, not knowing everything about something is, is maybe an advantage in some way.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Jory: There and there's also, I think there, I don't know there, I think there is a beauty in the imperfection that can sometimes result from that. Like that there is a little bit. There's a humanity in something that's not perfect. You know, you're saying about all these bands that are like, oh, this, these, these people can't, you know, can't, I mean, they can play, right?

They can obviously play, but maybe they are not the most technically proficient or they're, they're not at this level, but like, there's something beneath that that like, comes through in the end product, um, which is, yeah.

Dan: Yeah. There's a, there's like technical [00:36:00] ability and then there's like artistic creativity, right? And there's those things are sometimes when they, when they connect together, it's probably incr, it's incredible. Right? But, but they're also on their own sometimes. Yeah. Absolutely.

Jory: So the, this is what I'm hearing is you're saying that, uh, this rap I've written is going to like blow the roof off. Like, this is gonna be my thing. Am I gonna be a new rapper?

Matt: Probably I, I, I know some people jori, so like, I think we could probably make this happen. I think. I think the magic is about to Lightning's gonna strike man.

Dan: it could be

Jory: think the problem is, I've been listening, I've been listening too much to the, um, the, the lonely island in Seth Meyers podcast. So I like, I feel like, yeah, I can do that.

Dan: Nice. Nice. Yes.

Jory: but, you know, whatever. Why not?

Dan: but you can, do you, that's the thing. And it might be this groundbreaking new rap genre that you're creating. I mean, honestly,

Jory: Well, what I mean, all I'm trying to do with write it is I'm trying to amuse myself. I'm like, can I make this? Like, do I laugh when, when, you know, I string these words together.

Dan: just nailed it though. That's exactly it for anything like that, anything that I've created, it's that exact thing. Is this making me laugh a little bit or amusing me? Um, not that everything is funny, like, but, but like, that's so true. Like, it, it make something that you want to see and that that gives you joy and then someone else is probably going to appreciate that.

Fun and Unexpected Icons

Jory: we joked earlier about the making a seagull with a bagel icon, but

Dan: Yes, yes.

Jory: you know, we have a bunch of icons like that. We have, we've, um, like we talk about them, those icons a lot. We talk about our dumpster fire icon. We talk about the, the poop storm icon. We talk about these ones that like, there's no reason for these icons to actually exist.

We made them because we, we [00:38:00] were doing something else and we thought it was funny and we just did it. And like, that's so much more fun than talking about our home icon, the little house. I'm not gonna do a podcast about a house icon, but I think

Matt: We could.

Jory: about, you know, dumpster fire and stuff like that.

Yeah,

Matt: Yeah, we've had entire series on the ridiculous icons. I'm like, this, this is, you know, we did one on the mold icon dumpster, fire icon, uh, what were, what were some of the other ones? Um, yeah,

Jory: got a business time icon

Dan: I love that though.

Jory: So

Dan: That, but, but that, it's so cool that they're in there and even in the symbolic on set, like, 'cause I've obviously go through them. I don't even have the tool tips on, so I'm literally like trying to go through alphabetically to, but you have, I don't make anything easy for myself, by the way, but there, there's, uh,

Jory: Photoshop.

Dan: yeah, I'm still using Photoshop.

I'm hunting with my eyes. I don't even make the, the, the icons bigger, the, you know, um, but there's one you have, it's like a zombie hand coming outta the ground,

Jory: yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dan: And which is amazing that you were able to encapsulate that into like a tiny little grid like that. But like, that just makes me laugh every time I see it.

I'm like, that just makes me laugh and

Jory: And you know why, you know why that one's in that set? You wanna know the real reason. That's

Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

Jory: it's a zombie hand. Yeah. It's supposed to be a zombie hand. But when I was designing symbolic icon, the, the, the last version of symbolic icons, I set up my, um, uh, I think I was using Sketch for most of it, was using a little bit Illustrator sketch, but I set up my, uh, no, it wasn't, sorry, illustrator.

I ported to sketch, but I was using Illustrator and I set up my page and I divided everything into categories. And I was like, each category, for whatever reason I've decided, has like 25 or 30 icons. And so I just put these categories on there and like, I had one category that was like Halloween or scary.

And so it was like Halloween. I was like, here are the four obvious icons that go in there. And then I'm like, well, to be complete is I have to finish the rest of the icons. What, what's what fits in here? And I would just come up with random ideas. I was like, yeah, zombie hand. Did anybody ask for it? [00:40:00] No, I don't. Is

Dan: but it's there. I love it that it's there because it, it, it just makes me, it, it, it, like your personality comes through even on these little thumbnails that I'm going through, you know, like they, that's, that's awesome. I,

Jory: the, I'll say one problem with it is that I feel, um, and this is so silly, but like, I try, I've tried kind of not to cross the streams when it comes to symbolic cons. I'm fa awesome. So like, I will, I try and kinda like put on blinders and, and if I'm designing something for fau, some, I don't think about symbolic icons, but there are a few icons in that set that I'm like, oh, you know what?

I should bring those over. And like, I don't really wanna redesign them that much. Like I have a but icon in symbolic cons, like just a little. But I'm like, that's a cute little but fau some needs a, but

Dan: I've used it.

Jory: I will do it. You know what next version we'll have a but icon I'll, uh,

Dan: I think you should Amazon be hand if that's not already there. I, I

Jory: it is zombie head. Yeah.

Dan: you know, maybe it's holding a bone or so, I don't know. But

Jory: Yeah.

Dan: I did, I love that. Uh, that's, that's the personality, like making yours not only that 'cause you did it so that you would laugh and be happy about it. Right. And so I'm I'm liking it 'cause I'm, I'm, yeah, it's all, it, it's all part of the, uh, the non-intentional brand experience.

Jory: you put, so you put some fun little stuff, little extra glyphs though, in your type faces that are, you know, that are icons. Like they're really icons, but like these fun little, the things you don't need to add, but you're adding. 'cause it's, it adds to the flavor.

Dan: absolutely. Yeah. No, yeah, a hundred percent. I, I, uh, I love doing that for myself, you know, honestly, like, it, it helps sometimes I'll use them in the marketing of the, of the typeface, like, and so it's like, well, I, it would be cool to be able to just create a marketing image that's only using the font, and so this icon should be in it then, you know, and, and [00:42:00] try to find a way to get it in there.

Um, I could do more. It'd be, it'd be fun to just flesh out more of these. Um, but then I'm always, I'm always like, oh my God, I've been working on this for weeks and I, I really didn't want to get this out. So, so that, I can move on actually to the next one, but, um. Yeah, I, I, I love that, like hidden little hidden things, uh, as alternate characters.

It's fun to, um, it's fun to, to put those in and, uh, and it's funny.

Jory: now, I was gonna say, do you have a, like, do you have a backlog of ideas of typefaces you want to create? Like are you constantly curating different, you see a little snippet of something somewhere and.

Dan: You know what's funny is that you'd think yes, but I, I, I really don't, most of the time, I, I don't, most of the time I have one I'm working on, and then I do have the idea for the next one, kind of in, in the back and ready to go. That's the way it's been so far. Um, again, I think it's that constraint thing.

It's like, if I, if I think too much ahead, I'm gonna get overwhelmed and be like, uh, I've got all this. I gotta get through this to do this. And, and so I've kind of been like, um. Did like one behind essentially. Um, which has actually been convenient because I've, I've, I've never been like, all right, now I don't have any ideas.

There's always been at least one behind it where I'm like, okay, that's gonna be the next, the next

Jory: Any that you've kicked to the curb, like any you've started and be like, nah, no.

Dan: uh, not yet.

Thank you, Dan and Jory for joining us on this edition of podcast. Awesome. If you want to see what Dan's working on or get your hands on some of his amazing merch and fonts. Uh, you can go check that out@simplebits.com 

And definitely sign up for his newsletter. We've been getting a lot of mileage out of that one around here at Fawn. Awesome. And [00:44:00] I personally always really look forward to Fridays when he's sharing interesting bits of things that he has found online or new interests. it's always really delightful, so check that out.

And hey, if you liked this episode or you have a friend or colleague you think would benefit from checking it out. Copy the URL. Send it to him right now. As always, podcast Awesome is produced and edited by this guy right here, Matt Johnson. I get a little editing help on the video episodes from Isaac Chase.

Thank you Isaac for that. Uh, the podcast awesome theme song was composed by Ronnie Martin. The music interstitials were done by Zach mom, and two weeks from now, tune into the second installment of. This episode will Dan Cedar Home, and until then, go make something awesome.