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 Welcome to Podcast. Awesome. Where we chat about icons, design, tech, business, and nerdery with members of the Fawn awesome team, and occasionally the non awesome verse friend of ours. 

And this is a two part series with Dan Cederholm. He's a type designer, author, simple Bits Mastermind, and possibly the nicest person to ever throw an extra B and do a font name just because.

The domain wasn't available in this episode, we get into the messy magic of naming things, what imposter syndrome really feels like, why specificity and design can be more universal than broad strokes, and how building with LEGO might actually make you a better creative director. 

Also puppets and orange peelers, and a very cursed dev tool acronym. Let's get into our conversation. Episode number two with Dan Cederholm.

The Creative Process of Typeface DesignThe Creative Process of Typeface Design

Jory: Do you have a, like, do you have a backlog of ideas of typefaces you want to create? Like are you constantly curating different, you see a little snippet of something somewhere and.

Dan: You know what's funny is that you'd think yes, but I, I, I really don't, most of the time, I, I don't, most of the time I have one I'm working on, and then I do have the idea for the next one, kind of in, in the back and ready to go. That's the way it's been so far. Um, again, I think it's that constraint thing.

It's like, if I, if I think too much ahead, I'm gonna get overwhelmed and be like, uh, I've got all this. I gotta get through this to do this. And, and so I've kind of been like, um. Did like one behind essentially. Um, which has actually been convenient because I've, I've, I've never been like, all right, now I don't have [00:02:00] any ideas.

There's always been at least one behind it where I'm like, okay, that's gonna be the next, the next

Jory: Any that you've kicked to the curb, like any you've started and be like, nah, no.

Dan: uh, not yet. You know what, this is funny too. 'cause I, I feel like I am, uh, selectively lazy about things. So in, in other words, like I, I'm,

Jory: Yeah.

Dan: don't want to, I don't want to do extra work that I, that isn't part of the thing that's coming, that's being created.

And so I, I try to be so efficient that, that, um. I don't get far, I don't get too far. If something like doesn't feel right, I don't get, I don't get too far with it before I just, I guess, yeah, I guess I do. I, I do throw things away, but it's very, very early in the, in the thought. I think there's been a few where like I start to sketch it and be like, okay, yeah, I think I wanna do an alphabet based on this, or, or this kind of vibe.

And, and then, and then I start sketching or thinking about it, or maybe even getting into vector a little bit. And then like, uh, I, I just can't, I can't see myself. This is gonna be a challenge, a real challenge that's gonna take up all my time. So I'll probably toss that one aside and then, and then start something new.

But most of the, if I, if I star, if I get a few letters in, I'm gonna definitely finish it. Um, and then, you know, it might change 'cause it's so malleable until it's done and it's never done actually. So you basically just have to be like, all right, this is enough. Um, it's for like a sculpture I guess, but, uh, but. If I get a few letters in, I'm, I'm definitely gonna, I'm definitely gonna finish it. Um, because now that's kind of like the cycle of typeface and merch around it and stuff is sort of, that's my job now. So I, I, I, I guess I take that seriously and that any time I'm putting into creating letters, I, I wanna make sure that that [00:04:00] is eventually a finished product of some kind.

Um, yeah. Cool.

Jory: It's awesome. Well, I love 'em all. You just released, uh, what's the new one? Turbo. Turbo.

Dan: Yeah. Turbo? Yeah. Turbo. Turbo. Yeah. 

Challenges in Naming FontsChallenges in Naming Fonts

Dan: It's like, I realized, um, like naming fonts is really difficult because there's so many fonts that are already named. Like any lead, any word you can think of is a, a font already. It might not be a popular font, but it still creates some challenges and, and, um, there's a couple tools you can use to sort of search databases and find out what, so I, I got sick of like, typing in a word.

Oh, of course. That's taken, you know, like, it's like worse than domain names, honestly. And so I started, oh, if I just misspell the word then it's its own thing. It's its own brand. And that, that, like, so I,

Jory: that forever. You've thrown extra bees into things.

Dan: Exactly. This is like from the way going way back, uh, add a B, like the domain's not available.

All right, well add a B and now it's its own brand. And it doesn't matter. Once it becomes known, I suppose it doesn't matter what it the word is, but, uh, but yeah, turbo, I didn't even, I didn't even search Turbo. I just assumed it was already font. So I'm like, now it's become part of the, the, the, the marketing, right?

Like it's these misspelled words. Like I'm working on one, the next one. So, 'cause it's the only other one I have going right. Uh, and it's like a, like a stressed sands, um, calligraphy style kind of like. All caps, like something you'd see on a book cover, a cloth bound book cover in the sixties or something, right?

And, um, and so I'm like, cloth bound. That's a great, that's a great name for a font. And of course it's, I, I was like, it's gonna be taken and I'll just misspell it. It'll be cool, like K-K-L-O-F. And then I look it up and there's not a cloth bound. So now I'm like, I'm at a crossroads, like, do I use the real word or do I misspell [00:06:00] it intentionally to keep, keep a tradition going?

But, um, but yeah, naming things is, is, is, is hard and, and naming things. 

The Importance of Naming and BrandingThe Importance of Naming and Branding

Dan: And I've realized this programming, branding, anything like naming things is like really important. Um, and then there's some

Jory: there are so many, there are so many, um, so many little tools that like Debs have built that have horrible names,

Dan: oh

Jory: are just now they're totally commonplace. And you're just like, I what?

Dan: Those are the worst. The, the dev tool names I used to make fun of when we worked, when I actually worked with people, uh, a long time ago. The dribble development team, I would always joke around about, like, I would, I would say in like Slack, I'd be like, you guys, did you install kangaroo shoes? Uh, V six. Because like, 'cause they would like to, yeah, they would toss around these crazy names. Like, and like, it was no, like, it was serious. It's a serious thing. Like, oh, kangaroo shoes. Yeah. That like, does like authentication for like credit card, uh, decrypting or something like that. And it is just hilarious these names.

Uh, so maybe, yeah, I said that it's important to naming's important, but then maybe it, maybe it's the opposite actually. I mean, what's really important is the thing it does. And people will get used to the name, right?

Jory: Yeah. I mean, I,

Dan: Go either

Jory: I think that, yeah, that's, I mean that, I think that's true for branding too, for logos, for if you, uh, yeah. If it's good enough and it sticks around long enough, it'll get stuck in people's craw.

Matt: And then there's missed opportunities. Jewelry, like, uh, we could have, I mean, it's low hanging fruit man,

Jory: what you're gonna say.

Matt: yeah, we, we could have named the Icon Wizard. Farts the original name, but it it, the ship has sailed. What, what can we do?

Dan: Wait, why was that an acronym for something?

Matt: Yeah. Far font. Awesome. Reusable tidbits. It's like, uh,

Jory: Tidbits and shapes. Yeah.

Dan: and Shapes

Jory: Reusable tidbits and shapes.

Dan: Alright, [00:08:00] that's, well now it's out, so it's, people are gonna refer to it as that anyway. I mean, I know, I will.

Jory: I mean, it's not too late, Matt. I guess lean it, you know, I do own the domain name fart. Awesome.

Dan: Do you really? Oh my God,

Jory: yeah. Yeah.

Matt: we, there's, we could do something with this.

Jory: yeah. Yeah.

Dan: You guys are having too much fun over there. This is awesome. I mean, uh, like you said earlier, um, the mandate there is not, don't work too much. was the, what was the quote? Uh,

Jory: Oh, well, he says, yeah, spend the right amount of time not doing your job.

Dan: ah, there you go. Yeah. I, which I absolutely love that. That should be a banner in every office.

Jory: And we actually, you can see probably behind both Matt and I, we have these little, uh, I made these as little gifts for the team are like our custom, um, our very own logo Legos

Dan: oh my God,

Jory: Awesome. And Web. Awesome. Like built a little,

Dan: You built and it's like a stand built into it. Oh my God. Oh, the instruction. So it came as pieces and then the people Oh my

Jory: I had to source all the pieces and then spread 'em out and send, you know, do all the organization and, and, uh, uh, whatever. But, but you know, we just, it was fun and we've got 'em. They're good

Matt: why not?

Dan: Did you have to print, uh, instructions for that J or,

Jory: there's a program, um, uh, called Studio Through Brick Link and Brick linking, I think is owned by Lego, but it is Studio, this Lego studio app that, uh.

Dan: I'm writing this

Jory: Allows you to design with Lego. It is a 3D app. Has, has a, a library of all the Lego pieces. You drag 'em in, they click together, and then there's a little feature where you can basically put together the steps of how to build it.

And it then has a, another program built in, which is like, looks exactly like a Lego instruction [00:10:00] booklet. And you meet a step one and it, you little, it automatically shows you the little pieces that are in that step and you, so you build it all together. And then, um, I just printed it as, you know, made it a PDF that I shared with people.

It's really

Dan: amazing. And does, does it allow you to order all those pieces that you need in like

Jory: So Brick Link. Yeah, brick Link. The website is basically a, uh, I'm massively simplifying it, but right now one of the key pieces of it is it's like an online marketplace for secondhand or, or stores that sell Lego, um, by the

Dan: yeah.

Jory: And so you will, like, for these, these logos that I built, um, I knew that I needed, I think I made 28 of them total so that I could send separate ones out.

And so it, it uploads to Brick Link and it shows you how many pieces you have. And then it will do this like collation where it searches all the stores that are in their system and be like, okay, you can get 40 of the parts from this con, this one store, 20 of from, from this store. And then, you know, it'll be a multiple packages.

Um, but if you're doing like one set, sometimes a single store will have everything and it'll ship, ship you the parts.

Dan: That's incredible.

Jory: Yeah,

Dan: I'm gonna look into this 'cause that's so cool. And the fact that it does the instructions like Lego style and, I mean that's,

Jory: it's fun.

Dan: that's nuts.

Jory: My problem now is like, if we ever have other products, I'm gonna have to, uh, figure out how to, I'm like designing my, I have to design now when we design new logos, you know, I joke that, like, I used to think of the fax test, like a logo. If you could fax a logo and it retained its legibility.

Like it was, it was good. I was like, I was like, okay, can I make it with Lego? Can I, like

Dan: Right. Can I make it with Lego and it's like not super expensive or technically difficult, right?

Jory: Yeah. Um, and I think that's where it helps where our lo [00:12:00] the logos for font Awesome and web Awesome are built on our icon grid. So like, they're very pixely grid, you know, they're, you know, they're not super complex. Um, so

Dan: perfect for Lego.

Jory: yeah.

Dan: cracker Barrel, on the other hand, that'd be difficult.

Jory: Well, I don't think the new one would probably be,

Dan: The new one would be a lot easier. That's, maybe that's why they wanted to do that. Like,

Imposter Syndrome in the Creative Industry

Jory: the one, the one, the one final thing I wanna talk about because, um, I mean, you know, well two, I think you mentioned imposter syndrome earlier, which is I think is one of those things that is super interesting to me because I totally suffer from it as well.

And I think a lot of people do. And I think. cure to it in some ways is also hearing people that you admire, uh, admit to having it, but then also being like,

Dan: So,

Jory: isn't it, isn't it also really just like most people are just making stuff up as we go along? Like, we don't, nobody knows everything. We're all everybody, but we think that everybody, like, I, you know, we're like, oh, that person has it figured out.

I'm like, no, you're making it up. Like, I, I have, I have two kids. Like the second one was completely different than the first. Like, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing. I still don't know what I'm doing. We're, for everything I've been designing, I don't know what I'm doing when I design icons. I don't know.

Matt: Yeah.

Dan: See, that does make, that helps me, right? Because I consider you like V icon, like I said before, like I have one icon set. It's from you, it's the icon set. Um. That's crazy to hear. Right. But, but you're right. Like hearing that is helpful, I think.

Jory: Yeah, I know, I know more than I did and I, there's certain things that like, I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm kind of confident in that or oh, I, I feel, uh, more at ease talking about certain subjects than I used to. 'cause like I've done it, you know, I put in the how many hour, many hours. But, um, [00:14:00] I dunno. It's just one of those interesting things where like, if we could get rid of imposter syndrome, I dunno, maybe it's a good thing it pushes you or a little bit.

Dan: I, I, I think there is some good to it. Um, because yeah, because of that, it pushes you and it, it doesn't let you get complacent or, you know, I think it pushes you creatively. Right. Um, but it does suck. I mean, I, I feel like you're right. Nobody knows what they're doing. I think, I wish I had discovered that earlier in life, you know, because everything when I was younger seems so scary and mysterious and, and, um.

It's like one of those things where I, I if I'd known like you could, you could do graphic design when I was like a kid in the eighties. Like I, I feel like I would've, it would've been a different life path because I, I was always interested in it, but I never thought I could do it, or I didn't even know how it appeared.

You know, it was like, I just love these skateboard decks and like logos and, and, but, but, um, so the earlier you figure that out, that like, oh wait, no, they, people don't know what they're doing. Or like, public speaking, like that was a terrifying thing for me. And then something I never wanted to do, ever.

And then I, you know, got asked to speak, uh, somewhere and I'm like, or I have to do it. And. Then it was terrifying and it sucked. But then, but then he realized that nobody knows how to do that. Like you just do it. And then those people, the, the only difference between you on the stage and someone watching is just that you're, you're up there doing it.

And, um, and you're right in hearing that from people is, is really helpful. Um, I think there are people that are successful. It doesn't matter what industry it is, but they're successful and they don't have, I think the people that don't have imposter syndrome are just people that, well, A, they might be just like, [00:16:00] jerks, irks, but

Jory: Yeah.

Matt: Sometimes.

Dan: right, like, like, like, like some, there's like a, there's like a group of people that, and you can split 'em up into sections and one of them is like, they're just like narcissists or something, and they literally just don't think they do anything wrong or whatever.

But then there's people that. Never talk about it, but feel the same way that, that we do or whatever. And, and then, um, and then there's people that are just comfortable. I think that, that, that's my thing is like I, I wish I was more comfortable, uh, doing the things that I feel like I do well, apparently, but I still feel like I'm not qualified.

Um, and maybe that's, that, that uncomfortableness is what I don't like about it. Um, because knowing, reminding myself that nobody knows what they're doing, it's so true and it's helpful. And then, but I, but at the same time, it's like, I wish I was, I wish I just, just knew that, and it stayed like that. It stuck with me and I, and I, and I was comfortable with the fact that I'm not qualified, but yet I'm doing it and I love it.

And I don't care if you like it or not or whatever, but there's,

Jory: Well, you the, I mean, you are qualified. Like that's, that's, I think that's, I. There are moments I feel like it, it comes in ebbs and flows, and every now and then you're like, oh, you step back and you're like, do I, I don't know how to do this. I feel weird. Everybody's looking at me, blah, blah, blah. But, um,

Dan: Yes. It ebbs and flows for

Matt: we're always our worst critics too, you know? Uh, what, so the thing where, you know, e either of you could say like, ah, I didn't know what I was doing with this, or, I'm not sure about this icon set, or whatever, and somebody else is like, oh, that's my favorite one. That's amazing. Like, how, how could you say that?

Like, that, you know,

Jory: Well, so what's funny is this

Matt: across the board.

Dan: totally.

Jory: the, I said I had one more thing I wanna talk about, and, and I went to this up, this was not what I [00:18:00] wanted to talk about, but the lead into it was that, that, um, that Dan, you have had a measurable impact on a lot of people's lives, and you do have this body of work and you've, you've, like I said, written these books that people reference and like, oh, this has taught me how to do X, Y, z.

But I wanted to say that you, uh, for me, you've also had a smaller impact on, um, finally getting me to, uh, live a dream of mine, which is, I don't know if in the video you can see in the back corner there, I've got a, you probably can't, I'll pull it over here

Matt: Please, please, please, please, please, please, please. Oh,

Dan: gosh, yes, yes,

Jory: that we now have a puppet. And the only reason we have a puppet at FA Awesome is because you made a puppet of yourself.

Matt: Yes.

Jory: I was like, oh, that's possible. You can make a puppet. You can get a puppet made.

Dan: Oh, it's possible. All right. Sorry. Sorry. That was, that was terrible. Um, but, but that's. Isn't that, isn't that It's a possum, right? It's font

Jory: yeah. Yeah. It's the font possum.

Dan: I, that's wonderful. Um, I'm actually seeing it. I know. I saw a clip of it before when you Oh my God, the tail. Unbelievable. I don't think I saw the tail before.

Holy crap. That's incredible. Um, puppets are Oh, he is? Oh, he is perfect. Oh my God. And the shirt. Yeah. What is it about p

Matt: That possum's gonna ruin your workspace, man.

Dan: Yeah.

Matt: And, and eat. Eat your trash. Yeah.

Jory: He can play dead too.

Dan: have you done meetings with him where you're he's you and, and that's the

Jory: Yeah. We've done one, I think we've done one. Um, he made a, he made a cameo in one of our announcement videos for FA Awesome. Seven

Dan: [00:20:00] Yes. I,

Jory: while ago.

Dan: saw, I think. Yeah. 

The Possum Debut Surprise

Dan: That was amazing.

Matt: And I think the best part is that you debuted the possum, but nobody knew that you were gonna do it. And it was, it was like

Jory: yeah.

Matt: awkward, like, uh uh, like nobody

Jory: Dave was like, what? What's happening?

Dan: Oh, nobody el in the company knew that you were Oh my God, that's great. Oh, you see, you've got, you've got it down. You're like a natural, you're a natural.

Jory: It's a lifelong dream.

Dan: yeah, exactly right. I think that's what it is. It's like this childhood, I, I didn't realize how important like the Muppets were to me growing up and until later in life and like, and, you know, Sesame Street and Muppets and all that.

And, um, and so it was a dream of mine too. 

The Physical Challenge of Puppetry

Dan: Like, I just, like, I, I love it and I, I don't know if you've discovered this, I'm sure you have actually, if doing any puppetry with video right. It is an extremely physical grueling thing to, or at least when I, when I like trying Yeah. Like trying to like, you know, the sets, you know, the, the set, the Muppet sets where everything's above them and you know, it's, and then trying to look at a monitor and talk.

And it's really not easy to do, like when you're trying to hide yourself and do it for real. Um, my hat's off to all the puppeteers, man

Upcoming Video Plans

Jory: Well, my, my hope is that we are, um, I don't know if this is too much, if we're reeling too much, but we are gearing up to film another video at some point for Fawn. Awesome. Um, or, or, or one of our products. And

Dan: The possum's gonna be

Jory: hoping that we are gonna get the possum into it, at least as a little cameo and a little

Dan: You have to, you have to.

Jory: so

Dan: You have to. And you've gotta get the tail involved in this one, uh, major.

Jory: yeah.

Dan: I just love the tale. They're so realistic. Right? It's like, it's like perfect detail. Uh, yeah.

The Joy of Puppets

Dan: I mean puppets, man.

Jory: got a little,

Dan: [00:22:00] Yes. It's incredible.

Jory: uh, it got a little, uh, there's a

Dan: It's so

Jory: in here

Dan: in.

Yeah, it's bends. Oh my God. It's so endearingly gross. Like it's just, I just,

Matt: Yeah,

Dan: it's, I

Matt: Like, Ew, I don't wanna touch that. Ew,

Dan: right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Puppets make everything fun though. It's one, one of those things like, you know, um, trying to make people's day a little brighter.

Jory: Yeah.

Matt: That's

Dan: Um,

Newsletter Inspiration

Matt: So, Dan, I gotta say, um, I have really come to enjoy your newsletter and, uh, I think it's actually sort of inspired us too to kind of ramp up our own newsletters. We're always a little bit anxious about like, over communicating to customers and which means we should probably communicate to a level that feels slightly uncomfortable for us,

Dan: Yeah, exactly.

Matt: balance.

But I, but I, I really do look forward to seeing your newsletter.

Nerd Show and Tell

Matt: And we have this internal thing, and it's al it's always been in the background of, it's in the background of what we've been talking about the whole time, is that we, we've sort of like trademarked this idea of like a nerd show and tell, we put it on the podcast, we've done it.

Dan: Yeah.

Matt: Um, where, where. It goes right along with what Dave was saying about jury, was recalling what Dave would say. Like, um, you should, you know, allocate a certain amount of time to not doing your job in that your, the interest that you have. Um, it's not really a tangible thing. You can put it on a number, uh, put a number to it, but enjoying yourself, being curious about the world, exploring things, figuring things out.

There's no way that it can't fuel the work that you do and sort of help to create a nice vibe with the, your coworkers and things. And so all that to say is that your newsletter, a lot of what you [00:24:00] put out there are just things that you're interested in. And I always find myself like, that's really cool.

And I kind of, I go down my own rabbit rabbit hole of like, well, what's Dan into right now? Like, oh, that is so interesting. Like, I, I wouldn't have found that on my own. Um, is there anything from your newsletter, uh, either in recent months or just historically speaking where there's, there's something that you've come upon or a new creative endeavor or you're interested in, um, another creator, something that is still sort of peaking your interest in sort of fueling you, you know, beyond the newsletter?

Dan: Yeah. First of all, thank you for that. I, it's awesome feedback. I, I think it's, um, I like that the newsletter, again, talking about constraints, like just forcing me to do something each week where I'm communicating with sub the subscriber, the people that are interested in hearing from me, but I'm not selling them something every time.

Uh, you know, and I, I, I, I, so, and then I love, I love just, I love discovering stuff like that and sharing, like, IWI, I think everybody should have a newsletter like that. And I, it kind of remi, it mi I missed the old days of blogging right? Where you, it kind of was like that with RSS feeds, where you had this, um, very tight-knit community that shared kinda what their thoughts were, what they were interested in.

And, and so the newsletter kind of helps with that. And it's also, um. Uh, you know, getting replies is really fun. Um, I think people are less, you're not posting something publicly, you're just literally talking to the person that posted it. And I, I, I, I am really enjoying it. Um, so I'm glad I'm hap happy to hear that it's resonating and thank you for that.

Uh, um, and, uh, yeah, but like I, in terms [00:26:00] of things that stood out, like honestly all of these things that I'm sharing and I'm glad, glad to hear that, that at least some of them are, are interesting. 'cause sometimes I'm like, I, I, I have all these interests are all over the place and I don't, I don't know, like, I'm sure not all of them land, but like, but um, but I know some of them will and, and, uh, and I, I don't know if there's one thing, I'm trying to think if there's like, like.

The mo, the mo one, that, that, that like really got me going on something. I know that there is actually, and I'm just trying to think of what, which, which, which thing that is. Um, and it's probably something really weird. Like, um, I mean honestly like one of the, one of the first of this format, and it's almost been a year, I'm almost coming up on a year now of doing this each week.

But like, I think one of the first things I linked to was, uh, this orange peeler that, um, my, my partner Melissa had since she was a kid. And it's like, it's made by Tupperware and, uh, they don't make them anymore, but you can find them online. I ordered like some from Amazon just 'cause I needed, I wanted to have more of them, but like, it's this weird design of an orange peeler and it's like, it's hard to describe in, in just words, but, uh.

The amount of feedback I had on that was kind of incredible. And it, and it really helped because that was at the beginning of this format that I, this new format, a studio notes format that I was using. And so it really helped me like say, oh, this is cool. Like, I can, I thought this was gonna be ridiculous because I'm sharing, uh, uh, this Tupperware plastic orange peeler and how it's like, important to me, you know, like, and, and, and this is gonna probably bomb and fail, whatever.

But, but it's true. Like I'm trying to be genuine. I'm like, I'm actually, this thing is amazing and it's like changed the way I eat oranges. And, um, and then, you know, come to find out people were, were interested in it and they were like, this is awesome and [00:28:00] this is what I use. And you know, this one, you know, I have one like that, but it also has this thing on the back that, that, you know, so anyway, it started this conversation about orange peelers and it's like, um, I think that's, that's so fun.

And, uh, it doesn't have to be about. To bring it back to sort of businessy, 'cause it's, it's from simple bits. So it's related to design or you know, I'm kind of trying to share things that I think are well designed or, or, or help in creative process or whatever. Um, but it doesn't have to be, um, so on, on, on the nose, you know, it can be just something that you're gen if you're genuinely interested in it and wanna share your opinion of it.

That I think that's really interesting and that's what's interesting and that's what I would want to hear from, from you guys. Like if, you know, in your newsletters and, um, that recommendation kind of

Jory: yeah,

Dan: is so, is

Jory: that makes me, th that makes me think of the, um, I'm gonna get it wrong, but there was a quote I heard relatively recently by, um, uh, Phil Rosenthal. You know, somebody feed Phil.

Dan: Oh, I love, I love, yes, I love Phil. He's

Jory: and he was talking, I think he was talking about everybody loves Raymond and writing some of the episodes for that or things, but.

The Power of Specificity

Jory: He was spec, he was talking about specificity and how, um, sometimes the more specific you get when, when either relaying a story or, or in your case, like, you know, sharing this weird little specific orange peeler that like, is just this one little thing

Dan: yeah,

Jory: is, is tends to be more universal than sharing something bigger than like talking about, um, you know, a kitchen gadgets in general.

What's your favorite kitchen gadget Like that,

Dan: right, right, right, right, right.

Jory: but you're talking about the specific thing that has [00:30:00] resonance and when whether somebody, whether that orange peeler people have, or they have their own orange peeler, they have something in their kitchen that is specific to them or they have a unique little thing and so they can relate to, they can relate to the specificity of it versus, and, and I try to remember that with like, um, I.

Even just thinking about some of the stuff that I've posted online that has been the most quote unquote successful or has had the most reach has been like, one of the things was like I des, I just showed people how I designed a sheep icon and I went into the weeds on designing this sheep icon. It was this super small thing and it's like, and and, and I think it is so much more interesting than, here's how I design an icon.

It's like, no, no, that's a little too big. Like let's talk about this little small little thing that you know, sparks.

Dan: I love it. That's a yes. That's why people resonate with it. I think. Um, if it's too broad, it's, uh, everyone's talking about kitchen gadgets, right? But no one's talking about orange peelers specifically, right. Or, um. I, I think that's why it resonates. I I love that. Um, and, and Phil, I think I, I think I mentioned him in the newsletter at some point.

'cause I just, I, I had discovered him not, uh, sort of recently. And, um, what a great human being too. Like, he just like exudes like this joy and, and it's infectious, you know, like his, his love of, of food and people, it's really about people I think. Right. Kinda like Bourdain show was about people too really.

Even though food is the food is the, the thing. But like, um, and hopefully that's, maybe that's the specif, maybe there's specificity there too, right? Where, where it's a show about him finding food in a very specific place, the city that he likes. But really it's about people [00:32:00] and like. Humanity, you know, not to get deep about Phil Phil's cooking or Phil's food show, but like, it really is.

I think that, I feel like that's why it's great. Right? Um, and you know, a newsletter about would be cool. Right? Or like, or not just puppets, but like possum. Like if you, if you started a newsletter about the font possum, a day in the life of font possum or something,

Matt: Jewelry.

Dan: that would be cool.

Matt: 'cause this is, it is gold. It's gold.

Dan: Right.

Like, that would be cool. Like, I want to hear from font possum, like, what is he doing? I, I don't know. Like in somehow it's like, it would be more interesting. Yeah. Right. Like, like instead of, um. Here's a new product we release. Well, you gotta do product release stuff. But, but like, I, I'm trying to think of like, something you don't, you, you need to announce, but you don't really, you're not excited about announcing it, but like, you know, font possum could talk about, I don't know.

Yeah. Now I'm getting into the weeds,

Matt: What, what did, what did the possum find in the trash this week? J?

Dan: Exactly.

Jory: Yeah,

Matt: Some, some new treasure in the trash.

Dan: Oh my

Jory: We, the funny thing is we

Dan: actually, that's brilliant. That could be a

Jory: have a, um, a, a, an orange squeezer, a citrus squeezer that we now, like, it's a gift we give to everybody that we found on Amazon that is very specific. The, the, the mechanism for it. It's really easy to use and like gets all the fricking juice out of those lemons, those oranges.

So,

Dan: brilliant, man. I, this is the thing. I love that

Matt: Yeah.

Dan: these things like that you can't, you no one's advertising. Citrus squeezers on social media, you know, or whatever. Um, well actually probably someone is, but, uh, actually that's a little sad, isn't it? If there's

Jory: someone listening [00:34:00] to this is like,

Dan: Fuck it's like how exactly right.

Squeezy O is like damnit.

Jory: yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Dan: Um, but,

Jory: entire brand and squeezing citrus.

Dan: uh, I don't even know where I was going with this actually. I think I just love, I think we're onto something with the specificity is good, uh, for creative things and, you know, it goes along with what we were talking about with, with, uh, constraints. It's kind of, it's this very similar thing, right? Like put those guardrails on and you wouldn't think that it would be successful, right?

But it is. But it, but it can be. And it sounds like Phil's saying the same thing. That's that's awesome.

Matt: Yeah.

Dan: feel like we solved. We solved some stuff

Jory: We did.

Matt: solved some stuff, man. I, I didn't expect we'd go in this direction, but I love it. And it, it goes, it really goes along with, um, what I hear Dave say a lot of the time is it comes up again and again on the podcast where he is like. He says, we know icons aren't gonna change the world.

Like he, he sort of bumped into this opportunity 'cause he was trying to solve a problem for himself. He was working somewhere. He is having a problem with icons. He created an icon, set it, it picked up steam. He figured out a way to monetize it. Like it, it truly, the story of font awesome sounds like a happy mistake.

You know what I

Dan: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

Matt: the, the whole idea behind the company now is like, we just wanna work with good people and have a good time and have some freedom to be creative. And it doesn't necessarily matter what we're doing. You know, he'll say we could have made some kind of widget or whatever, but if we can create an environment where we're having a good time and there's that human element to it, not only do we benefit, but it's sort of, I think about your newsletter, like you're talking about stuff that just happens to [00:36:00] interest you.

Dan: Yeah.

Matt: But you're building a community as you go and you're having a good time and it all just kind of works out. How do you measure it? I don't know. Uh, but like, it, it works and it, you know, when we have a mindset of having a good time and sharing knowledge and the things that we enjoy, you're creating community and then it fuels you to create more stuff.

You know, it all just kind of, it all sort of works together, you

Dan: totally. Yeah. I mean, especially for a team, right? Building things together, like being happy and motivated and, and being genuinely wanting to be around PE each other is like, that's what it's all about really. I mean, when it comes down to it, right? The, your life is right now. So like, you gotta make it enjoyable.

Matt: for sure.

Dan: I think the older I get, I, I realize, I realize that for sure. Um, um, sometimes I, I do worry about, maybe it's getting older, it's like, okay, I'm doing, I'm making things. And, but is that, what is that really doing? Is that, is that helping the world or in, in a sort of like a existential like, um, way. And, uh, but uh, yeah, not to, I don't wanna end on a downer here, but

The Impact of Creativity

Jory: no, listen, adding, doing, I firmly believe that putting creativity out into the world is a net win for everyone. Like, you're, you're, you're creating stuff and it may not, it may not change the world, but. They're ripple effects. Um, you know, it, you making, uh, uh, typefaces has allowed, you know, you did a newsletter because of that, that newsletter told somebody about this orange peeler, and they go on to like, you know, make the next, you know, the next big juice trend that I, you know, I don't know that,

Dan: [00:38:00] someone's life or something. Yeah. No, I, I get what you mean, like a butterfly effect. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I,

Jory: So,

Dan: I, that's a great, that's a great way to think about it. Thank

Jory: so flap those

Dan: into a, the, this is like turning into a nice therapy session for me too, which is

Matt: Oh, well, and it, it's this, it's this circular thing. It all feeds on, on, on itself. You know, it's like if I'm looking for a font, I'm like, oh, I need to, I need to go see what, what Dan's up to.

Building Community Through Creativity

Matt: Because, you know, we, I like, I trust your, your point of view and, and your taste. And you always have interesting things to say and things that kind of bring me joy.

Like, you know, an example would be in your newsletter, um, a few weeks ago, you, highlighted a guy that goes out and cleans up public spaces so that he can skate 'em.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: And like, you know, back in the day I was, I was a skateboarder. I still am still interested in skateboarding culture. Um, and I'll probably break a hip if I try and go out to any of those spots.

But I love, I love seeing this young guy get a weed whacker, go out into the country where there's like some public utility place or whatever that's overgrown and, and. Yeah, it just brought me joy, you know? And so I remember, I remember that. I'm like, oh yeah, from Dan's newsletter. That was so cool. I'm gonna, and I keep paying attention to your newsletter 'cause I know that you're gonna deliver great stuff.

And then I'm like, if I'm looking for an interesting font, oh, I need to, I need to go check out Dan's site and see what he's up to. You know what I mean? It's all just, it all just sort of feeds into each other.

Dan: That's, that's awesome to hear. Thank you, Matt.

Dan's Creative Process

Dan: I, yeah, I, I, I think that curation, you said taste right, which is something you can't maybe taste, AI can't have taste hopefully right now that it can anyway. And so maybe that's curation not to go down this rabbit hole, but like, curation and, um, and taste is something that's unique to everyone, and that's [00:40:00] something that, that, that should be at the forefront, even if it's so quote unquote a business or whatever.

Right. I feel like, um, yeah, like I want to, I want to get people's opinions about stuff and what they recommend and, uh, yeah. That's cool. I'm, I'm so glad to hear that. That's, that being myself is working.

Matt: Hundred percent, man.

Dan: Right. Like I'll keep

Matt: working, Dan. And it, and, and it's an encouragement to us too. You know, like we love having folks on the podcast that are like-minded. And I, um, I, you know, this is the first time meeting you, but just watching what you create and the, and what you put out in the world, I'm like, I think, and, you know, jewelry can vouch and so he's, Dan's gonna be a great guest for the podcast.

We just kind of knew,

Jory: I said no

Matt: of knew.

Dan: that's awesome.

Jory: Don't put wordless in my mouth.

Matt: Yes, you did. You did J um,

Dan: yeah, no, I could chat with you. I could chat with you guys all day, honestly. Like, it's, it's awesome. And, uh, what you guys are doing there and meeting the team, I can tell like, you're doing all the right things for the right reasons. Like you're, you're, um, that's really refreshing, honestly. And, uh, um, yeah, just like happy to be here with you, 

Wrapping Up with Dan Cedar Home

Matt: as we wrap up, can you tell folks, uh, how can they get information about what you do, the things that you put out in the world, where should they go?

Dan: yeah, yeah. Thanks. Uh, the, they should go to simple bits.com. That's kind of like the hub for everything that I'm, I'm doing. And, uh, you can sign up for the newsletter there. You can check out the typefaces and the stupid goods that I have and, uh, and all that stuff. Um, yeah, simple bits.com and then I, simple Bits is my handle on most, uh, most platforms out there, I guess.

Um, and, uh, but the best way is the newsletter, honestly. Like, not to pump it [00:42:00] again there, but thank you for the plug. But, um, that's the best way to just, 'cause that's where I'm consistently sharing things in a very organized way. So it's, it's probably the easiest way for people to, to, to, to learn. So, yeah.

Matt: Thank you so much Dan Cedar home for, uh, of simple bits for coming on podcast. Awesome. Today. We appreciate it.

Dan: Thank you for having me guys. Pleasure. It's been

Jory: Dan.

Final Thoughts and CreditsFinal Thoughts and Credits

And that's a wrap of our part two conversation with Dan Cedar Home. And, uh, we're still thinking about font naming Muppets and that brilliant line about spending the right amount of time not doing your job.

If you're wanting more of Dan's magic in your life, you can check him out@simplebits.com to check out his fonts, all of his really cool merchandise and his weekly newsletter, one of the few emails that here at F. Awesome. We, we open on purpose because it's just that delightful and, uh. Hey, if this episode sparks something in you and your creative brain, maybe you want to pass it on to a friend or a coworker and podcast.

Awesome, per usual is produced and edited by this guy right here, Matt Johnson. The podcast awesome theme song was composed by Ronnie Martin. The music interstitials were done by Zach Mom, and the video editing, I get a little help. With these video episodes from Isaac Chase. Until next time, go make something awesome.

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