Matt: Vic Bell. Thank you so much for coming on Podcast Awesome. you've been so gracious and patient with us as we figure out our time changes, with us being in the US in different time zones and you being in the uk.

So, much appreciated. Welcome.

Vic: thanks again for, figuring out this, time zone chaos that we all live in all of the time.

Matt: Yeah. Well, isn't it amazing though, here we are living in the future. They said we'd have flying cars, but we'll take video conversations in different time zones. 

Vic: I will take it.

How Vic and Jory Connected

Matt: why don't we start with, backing up a little bit how you and Jory got, acquainted you just did a recent icon pack for us. how did you guys connect and get to know each other?

Vic: I think it was, I actually don't, I think we kind of spoke a lot on Twitter back in the glory days of design community, Twitter. but I think, yeah, I think I kind of always sort of kept an eye on what you were up to, and we connected that way. Do you remember any other way we

Jory: it was a little of that. just, yeah, I mean I am kind of jealously always keep tabs on icon designers and illustrators who I, think you're doing fantastic work and you are no exception to that rule. so it was just, you know, always would see the stuff you'd be creating and kind of drooling over it.

And, then I don't know if we got, I don't know if we were in a Slack together or a Discord or something at some point, um, but when we. Had the opportunity to bring some other icon designers, kind of into the font awesome fold to help with some of these pro plus packs that we were working on. I just, I [00:02:00] jumped at the opportunity 

We don't need to do it right away. There's no deadline. If you are interested, we've got a slot for you. and I was so grateful you said yes. we are actually, I'm sure I'm knowing when this'll probably come out. You are actually the first, icon designer we're recording a conversation with who designed one of our packs.

Vic: no pressure.

Jory: It's awesome. thrilled to chat with you. 

Vic: I think you're right though. I think we, it was one of those, situations where I can't really, I have a lot of those. Types of people, in my kind of orbit where I can't really remember how we got chatting, but we definitely did at some point. And it, felt quite natural to, and how could I say no, it is like, you know, make whatever you want, whenever you want this awesome product that we're making.

Jory: Yeah. 

Font Awesome Icon Packs

Jory: So for, for anyone kind of following along we have, Font Awesome is obviously we have a ton of icons, and they're all in these kind of core styles, which are classic style is a meant to kind of have personality but kind of be default, kind of be able to be used in a lot of different situations.

That has been great for us, but we, myself and, and Noah Jacobis, who's, our other icon designer on the team, kind of wanted to stretch our wings a little bit more. And when we were envisioning what font Awesome Seven could be, we had the idea for creating, what at the time we called Small Batch.

And now we are just, are part of our Pro Plus, icon packs. But we envisioned a, a way to create these kind of smaller little bundles of icons that would get, get you all the way there for most types of websites. they may not have some of the most unique or bespoke icons, for every single project, but they would work for most projects.

and then we had the idea of like, oh, this would actually be a great opportunity to work with icon designers that we admire. in my mind I was like, could I write a [00:04:00] project brief that like would be a dream if I had gotten as an icon designer?

And so we put it together and it's just like, listen, we have, you know, these two to 300 icons, we've identified these icons and we basically want you to make an icon pack. And it can be whatever you want it to be. Like, style wise, look and feel wise. you could be, I don't even, I remembering back some of the languages, like, you know, imagine if you were wanting to create an icon pack for a daycare or for a bank, or for your softball team or for whatever it may be.

So that was kind of the brief, which, in one sense is great. 'cause it's super, super open. Right? You can, it can be anything. 

Vic: It's terrifying.

Jory: what? 

Vic: terrifying. Yeah. It's totally overwhelming and terrifying at the same time. It's like, that's kind of what you want. You want that brief and then it comes and you're like, oh God, I was not prepared, for this all. So, it was hard. It was hard. Yeah. It was, it was really hard to think of a reason not to do this.

And, I respected you and Noah so much in that kind of arena that I was like, yeah, it'd be stupid to not get on board with this and, you know, try and narrow it down for myself and create like a bit of a brief for myself, I guess within that, to try and, take myself to a place where I had a bit of an idea of work 'cause Yeah, it was an amazing but overwhelming, brief for sure.

But I really appreciate it. Yeah.

Jory: Ultimately we landed on a hand drawn style. do you remember why you kind of went that direction or was it? Because never done something like that before or

Vic's Creative Journey

Vic: Yeah, I think, so I've kind of been having a bit of a personal journey with my creativity over the past, I would say five years or so. I got involved in design and icon design in particular, along with illustration in about [00:06:00] 2011, 12. and I would say that's when I've been professionally doing this since, 

I kind of fell into the trap of being quite young and quite, drawn to, specific styles, specific trends. And you know, as you can probably remember from that time, Dribbble was a very specific,vibe. I was kind of cutting my chops with a bunch of different projects meeting a bunch of different people.

And it was, for me, I very much lent into the really clean, really vector based, drawing style, which I love. But, I think by the time you contacted me, I was kind of really leaning into something a little more, a little bit more self-expressive. and trying to find who I was in this because I felt, I felt like, you know, if I look back at that time.

It was around the time I started to realize that, I didn't quite know myself creatively. I've always really made things for other people. I've never made stuff just for myself. And if I have, it's kind of been directed towards a portfolio that I'm trying to get more work, get, you know, freelance work, be hired, whatever it might be.

And when you contacted me, it was definitely part of, my sort of creative, midlife crisis, I guess you'd call it. Like I have a bit of freedom where I get to express myself in a different way and figure out what my creative voice is. And not only that, I've changed, you know, when I started designing, I was like early and it's like a decade later.

I've been doing this for 15 years now. So things have changed. I've changed as a person. And I think when you contacted me. 

The Hand-Drawn Icon Style

Vic: it was a really good opportunity to like just put the two polar opposite things together, like icon design, you think of clean every point is considered, every, curve is over designed and everything is really [00:08:00] reduced down to that.

And that's what I'd done my entire career with Icon Design. Whereas this, I was like, what if I just do the other thing? the stuff I'm having fun with which is hand drawing stuff and really getting back into sketchbook work. And I started to find a lot of artists that work more traditionally and that was really inspiring to me.

So I was like, what if we just try and use that and we don't do the refining of the points and, you know, making Every tiny curvature or every tiny detail within the icon, this overly considered thing. What if it's really sketchy? And what if it's really loose and hand drawn and it feels almost, like someone's graffiti it on a wall or it's been tattooed on some skin.

You know what I mean? Like what if it's, it's completely the other thing. so that was kind of my thinking behind that decision to take that direction. 

Jory: Yeah. That's awesome. I can very much relate to almost everything you said there. For me, designing some of the other packs I designed, it always was just, it was kind of that little question too. It was like, well, what if this what if there was an icon set that, I was telling you earlier, I designed one called Thumbprint that, I don't know if you ever saw the Ed Eberly thumbprint drawings.

Do you know that that name? It was, I used to have these books as a kid, which was, you would take your thumb and you'd put it in a little ink pad, put it on piece of paper, and then, you know, draw a little smiley face or turn into a piggy or something. And so I was like, I kind of want that, where it's a, a blobby shape and then lines on top of it, and can I make a whole icon set?

And so I did it. and for you, just like seeing. I think you gave me maybe like 10 or 20 initial sketches you had done and we're just like, yeah, that's great. It's, we don't have anything like that. but that's obviously not going to work for every situation, but that's kind of the beauty of it, we went through and made a bunch of, graphics based on your icons so we could kinda show 'em off on the website, like little mockups of things.

and we named your icon pack.

Vic: Here [00:10:00] we go. Okay.

Jory: Here we 

Matt: Uh oh. Uh oh. 

Vic: Yeah. This

Matt: Don't mess it up. Jory.

Jory: It is called, we're calling it graphite.

Vic: Okay. That is like absolutely perfect. Yeah. That getting pencil to paper and that hand drawn, I love that. 

Reflections on Icon Design

Matt: you know, as you guys are discussing this, I'm curious, to back up just a little bit 'cause I don't come from a design background and it's so fun to sit in on these conversations and you're talking about sort of the evolution of your career and you're in design from, your early twenties.

And then you're trying to figure out what do I want to do? What kind of makes me tick? And I'm always curious about the specific community of folks that design. Icons. And I'm curious when did you start breaking into that and what is it that you specifically like about icon design?

in particular?

Vic: Yeah, I think until I really started to, find my way in the community a little bit more, I didn't even realize that this was a job. I had no was something people did. Like if I tell people, yeah, I just design, you know, those little tiny things that are on your phone that you tap, I design, those people are like, okay, okay.

Then like, is that even a job? You know what I mean?

do you even do? 

Jory: I was

literally sitting in my eye doctor's office the other day and he asked me what I did and I described it and I, like, I pointed at his computer screen and I like pointed out specific and I was like, I kind those little things. Those little tiny things. Yeah.

Vic: it's like, it's just the dumbest thing when you think about it on like a, a larger level. You're like, yeah, how did I even get here? But I didn't know that this was a job because it's ridiculous that it's a job, but it is, and it's actually a really skilled, honed job that, takes a lot of mastering, a lot of patience and a lot of time.

And, I think that's something I didn't know at the beginning. but I saw, that this was happening and [00:12:00] I sort saw people sharing icon sets or, mockups that they were doing. And, I started to really understand my skillset. So I think there's two sides of it, right?

There's the skills that you have on the screen. I can use this software, I can, You know, use my skills to build this process, to have an output that's different to like the passion of it and the like, I, I'm actually motivated to do this and get better at it and understand it and try and push the boundaries of it.

Those are two separate things. And, I had the skills side of it and I was interested in it enough to look at the passion side of it, but, it was really the skill side of it for me that, made me lean into it because I, I was already, in love with Adobe Illustrator and always have been, there's always, for me, there's always been like a, a connection between, 

Being able to illustrate in and, and do something that's quite hand drawn and hand kind of, what's the word? Like, something that's, physical in front of you. and infuse that with technology. I've always found that quite, motivating and inspiring and exciting. so it was really, initially it was the skill side of it.

I knew Adobe Illustrator really well, and I realized that people were kind of adding this skill of icon design to their, ball. and I thought that that's something I could do, but what I didn't realize was like, this goes way back. So this kind of answers the question about, you know, what, what made me wanna do this?

Childhood Influences

Vic: And I think it goes way back to my childhood, it goes way back to me being a kid and being. obsessed with small things. I've always been really obsessed with tiny, worlds and imagining things at a small scale. I look back and I understand now, I'm 37, [00:14:00] and I'm understanding more about, you reflect a lot and you get to know your experiences, 

And I've reflected a lot about that time and I've learned over the past, decade or so that, I am dyslexic. And I also am on the, autism ADHD spectrum somewhere, which I'm currently going through an assessment for. And I think now I look back, my love for small things was the fact that I struggled with words 

 Whereas, you know, icons, pictures of any kind was the way I saw the world and understood the world. And then I look at the toys that I loved and it was all the kind of really tiny, I love Polly pockets and anything I could have that was just small.

and that's kind of, it's funny for me now to look at, you know, I can design and think I added it to my portfolio and my skillset because I thought I could be a better freelancer and it was a skill that I so I can just do it anywhere, but it goes way further back than that for me.

I think about Pokemon cards and I was obsessed with like learning what all the icons meant and what all the different types of Pokemon were and the fact that they were all on this tiny little card and there was so much information in there. I didn't really need to understand the words.

I, the pictures told me everything I needed to know. And not only that, like I escaped into that world and yeah, so it's funny to me that I, I thought in my early twenties that I can design was just something I, I can do that. 'cause I've got the skill, I've got the, I can use it, you know, I can use the programs and I can, I can learn how to do that.

But yeah, icon design goes way back in my opinion. it was

Jory: I'm not nearly as, I'm not nearly as reflective as you are, now that I think about it, I'm like, yeah, checks

Matt: love, I love how you put that. All together. And when you put it [00:16:00] into the context of like your career development and stuff, because I think that everybody has certain kinds of ways of seeing the world and certain skills that maybe in some way they take for granted. So like you're reflecting on your childhood saying, I always like small things.

I like little toys. and I think that we can, because we're in our own head and we're having our experience of the world, it can sometimes be hard to be objective about, how does the rest of the world see things? And then you realize as time goes on and you discover, oh, I have a specific way of seeing the world that maybe other people are not honed in on in the same way. And you're reflecting on, well, I could also do icons. And then along the way you discover, oh, this might be the sweet spot. You know, it connects to all these things that I really enjoy and the way that I see the world. That ends up being a real gift to other people. 'cause you're so highly skilled in the minutiae and the detail of small things.

I just love the, discovery process of that sort of like, oh, what a lovely surprise to realize, you know, I'm in the world of design. But then there's something very specific that you're particularly skilled at, just because of the person that you are. It, it's, I love how that all kind of fits together.

Vic: Yeah. 

Creative Process and Personalization

Vic: it's like the creative kind of, journey as a whole, right? We'd start to discover that, the things that we're interested in, the things that we hyperfocus on, the things that really get our batteries full. those are the things that make our work special. Like the things that I create are special because of.

The things that make me excited and someone else can't do that. They could kind of do the process. They could walk in my, footprints and try and figure out how I did it. But realistically, the passion that lays within that process, that's the secret sauce that makes everything incredible.

You know what I mean? so yeah, I love that [00:18:00] too. And I'm actually trying to like lean into that in all walks of life at this point. I'm trying to understand those little moments that I've realized. Oh, that's why I do it that way. That's why I think about things that way instead of in a world where we, all we do is compare ourselves to each other and social media and, 

I could never do something as good as that. What about us looking at what we do and say they couldn't do this. Like do this. I like, I can do this because of my experiences and because of my interests and the way my brain works and the way my brain, focuses in on those details and stuff.

So I love that too. It's, the coolest part of being a creative, I think is figuring all that stuff out.

Matt: Yeah. That's great. Thanks for putting that all together. Like as you were talking, my brain's firing, like, and making connections for myself, like, oh yeah, I like that sort of discovery process of like, what makes you tick. And that's really, that's really lovely,

Vic: I love having conversations like that 'cause it's like, we could just be like, yeah, I just made some pictures. I don't know, like I just some colors on a page and then, but it's way, way more than that. we're creative people for a reason and we do this job for a reason.

and I think it, it's that little kind of, there's just like a hidden layer there of all of that good stuff that we overlook a lot. I love that stuff. That's why I like to Really spend my time thinking about and, getting my hands dirty with creativity is like what makes that meaty bit in the middle?

tick, you know what I mean?

Jory: there's something untangible there that just makes me think of how, like even in terms of icon design, where. our core icon set has a look and feel that is of itself. it has all these little kind of rules in there, corner radii and whatnot.

But, if you were to say design, a castle icon, and give me that little brief of the single icon, and give the exact same [00:20:00] brief to Noah, who is equally as versed, if not more so in our style. the icons we would produce would be similar, but they would be different. they would have, even though we have all these rules, we bring our own little unique view of the world to those things.

Noah would even say it too, because we, your icon set, graphite, we had a couple icons that we were missing that we, for whatever reason, we were like, oh, you designed this one, but we should probably name this. This looks more like this other icon for us, so we should give this other name and we need to then just add, quickly, add one and trying to, we didn't do a lot and if we have a bigger one, we'll come back to you.

But there were a couple icons you were like, oh, we just need to fill this gap. And so Noah went in and he was like, you know, mimicking your style somewhat, which to varying degrees of success. you tell us when you see the final result. But, it's now he has his little stamp on it too.

But just kind of seeing that creative process and why you designed the house that way. The little circular window on the house or YXYZ, is kind of fun.

Vic: Yeah. that was a big part of the discovery process that I was just talking about with, my creativity in general. I'm an illustrator as well as an icon designer. It all kind of blends as one to me. especially seen as the illustration I tend to create and that I love is very icon design driven.

It's very simple and bold and, straight to the point kind of thing. Like, how can I make this, feel a certain way while using the least amount of, assets as possible? what's the simplest way I can achieve this? And I think, I would start to get totally lost with. creating a house and then having like seven or eight options, and it's like, which one? I don't know which one. I've done a bunch of different ones. I don't know which one looks best. And having that overwhelming feeling of like, I don't know, I don't even know my own taste. I don't even know which one is best?

And it's like, it's just pick the one you like. if you [00:22:00] were gonna have this in the frame on a wall, which one would you pick? Which one do you like? And just going with that gut and figuring that out. that's the fun part for me. As I said, everyone can learn the skill bit.

It's that personalized kind of nuance.

Jory: Yeah.

Vic: the super fun stuff in my opinion.

Trusting the Creative Process

Matt: I would imagine that part, you know, part of the process of identifying icon designers like yourself and saying, this is gonna be a great person to work on this concept for this is, a point of view and taste. in one sense it's pretty subjective, how do you. How do you nail that down and explain it? And it's not really a scientific thing. It is just a skill and, there's a heart and a feeling that comes across from it that makes it specifically yours, and it communicates something special to people who also have a similar taste and sensibility. I mean, how do you, narrow that down to some kind of science.

I mean, in one sense, like visually our brain is gonna perceive something and there are general rules for how to go about that. But, at the end of the day, it's point of view and just that something special, you know?

Vic: Yeah, trusting your own sort of intuition, and that's something that no one else can really provide in the same way that you can. that's the interesting part. like you just said, you could both create the same icon, but it would look different. And I think that's where we, risk kind of. 

Project Validation and Freedom

Vic: messing with the creative process overall is if we listen to too many people and we have too many cooks in the kitchen on this type of stuff, I was kind of left to make this icon set myself, and there wasn't really a feedback, loop or anything like that, which was lovely because, every job I'd ever done before that and since probably, it's very rare you work on a job and you don't get rounds of feedback.

Like, [00:24:00] oh, can you tweak this? Can you tweak that? Overall, it was my decision, what went into this thing. And then when I sent it over to you both to review it was like, yeah, if we really like 'em, they look great and that's that. And I was like, oh, okay. It was, it's like such a validating, lovely experience.

and I hope Everyone gets one project like that in their, creative career because it is like just a kind of a bit of, a restart of trust in yourself a little bit when you get to play with a project like that. So, I really appreciate that those were the kind of boundaries that were set up from your side.

If that's what you want them to look like, then that's what they look like and it's like, oh, cool. Okay. Thanks.

Jory: It had to be open like that. I think because I, because I have, as a designer, tend to have strong opinions about certain things and the way things look, I was really trying to not put my finger too much on any scale there, because I just wanted it to be wholly yours or, you know, we worked with some other designers as well and just be like, if I wanted it to be a certain way, I would've designed it myself, right?

So, like, I might as well let trust the process and let go as much as I can to make it work. And you. 

Technical Challenges and Implementation

Jory: There's some technical restrictions with how our, you know, contacts are actually built and delivered that we had to adhere to. but yeah, we just tried to be as open as we could. I mean, I remember you, I think, and it was a while ago now, there were a few things where you presented a couple different directions and you're like, which one, do you like?

And probably your answer is like, well, which one do you like go with that one? Or, I like this one, but I'm, you know, I don't feel super strongly. the biggest thing for me was like, you got whatever you're doing, you have to repeat it like two, two to 300 times. So you need to enjoy it. 

Vic: and I think on a brief like that can only come from another creative in the same spot, right? Like, [00:26:00] that's why it was kind of like a special thing because you have what I'm talking about, which is that passion and that motivation to make something really cool. You also have that, and that's why it can only really come from another creative 

Someone with a very similar kind of situation and, and a viewport on the whole thing.

Future of Font Awesome Icon Packs

Jory: Well, we're thrilled with the result. And I need to give credit to the higher ups of the company, Dave and Travis, for giving me permission to bring on other folks and to kind of structure the project the way we did. because it was an idea just like, Hey, what if we brought some other folks in and did this?

I think it's been a success so far. the only other set that's out there right now was designed by Laura Bohill Chisel. And that's a lovely, unique set that has all of its own quirks and characteristics that I never could have designed. we made available when we initially launched version seven and your Pack Graphite is the first one releasing, post-launch from another designer.

And so it's kind of cool that we're starting to open those doors and have more to share, soon. And it may even be out by the time this is released, Matt, I would think, 

Vic: I'm excited to see like what, what's happened on the technical front, because if I'm being honest, that's. Not where my head was. And I'm like almost baffled as to how,

Jory: mm-hmm.

Vic: how you've made this work technically. so I'm just as excited to see this, go live. And if for nothing else, just to, ease my curiosity on, how they even implemented this, 'cause it's so hand drawn and so floaty, there isn't really like guidelines.

Like I kind of tried to stick to a, rough set of, constraints. But realistically, I just sort of threw things around a bunch and there's so many points and so many, like, you know, how a normal icon is just quite [00:28:00] smooth, has the points where they need to be. This one's so jagged and messy.

There's points everywhere. And I just, I'm super interested to know what

Jory: we kept pretty rough. Yeah. it's still, it has those points everywhere. Thankfully our process for uploading things, we've like account for a lot of that where we have this thing called, um, uh, self, self intersection.

Vector Object Overlaps and Uploading Icons

Jory: It's when like a, you know, the vector objects of the path, like literally overlap each other a little bit. Or there's these weird things that, two vector nodes are like really close to one another or something. Which typically for likeall the icons, our core icons that we're designing, we don't allow any of that when we're uploading.

We like try and keep 'em as clean as we can, but by the very nature of this pack being hand drawn in our, the system, we upload our icons to like the first step. There are these little check boxes and one of them is, is, Self intersection is an error typically, but there's a little checkbox that says, treat it as a notice, not as an error.

And then there's another little checkbox that says ignore notices. And so for this set in particular, I had both of those checked when I uploaded them. 

Vic: Maybe that be my new, like bio on all of my socials. Treat as a nor not an error. I like that a lot.

Matt: There you go.

Jory: Yeah.

Matt: That's great.

Hero Graphics and Mockups

Jory: So these are all the little, like the hero graphic and the little mockups that we're gonna have on the pack page itself. the page that we will build just around this graphite pack

Vic: This looks so good. Yeah, that looks incredible.for me it's like the shadow. I'm so glad that that kind of comes across. 'cause there's that extra kind of shadow on a lot of the icons that I wanted include just to add a little depth to some icons that kind of need it.

I think, that's something we lose a lot in icon design is the depth of things and it's just, 'cause there isn't a lot of space to do that a lot of the time. So that was something I really wanted to explore [00:30:00] and try and include. and it's cool to see that that's, still is prominent and in the mockups.

It kind of still translates into that space. Thanks for sharing those. They look awesome.

Jory: Yeah. Well, we may have to chat because I think in some of the early drafts you even did a two color version where you had like a little bit of a fill color behind it or just a little bit of a hint at like a shadow or a glint of light or something in some of early draft.

So we may do a version of this that includes that at some point, but

Vic: I think I remember doing almost like a dual, exploration

Jory: mm-hmm. 

Vic: which yeah, was another level of chaos 'causeit was just a bit much. But yeah. I'd love to, I'd love to see how that would come to life. But it's super cool to see this, you know, in, in these mockups and.

Feeling real. 'cause I guess I haven't even seen them in an illustrator art board. 

Illustrator vs. Figma for Icon Design

Vic: I don't know if people would even know, but I am still Adobe Illustrator. It's still my kind of tool of choice for all this stuff. A lot of people, you know, especially in my, icon design of migrated over to Figma now, which I understand it's a, an incredible tool.

But for me, illustrator is like a right hand to me. I've been in there over 20 years now. So, you know, I can't really, do what I wanna do all the time, in Figma as easily in my opinion, as I can in Illustrator. So this was all created an illustrator with a custom brush and everything that I made for this one.

Creating Custom Brushes and Using iPad

Jory: did you actually use a stylist to draw or just good old mouse or,

Vic: A lot of the time I tend to sidecar, my iPad to my MacBook, so it's just use it as a second screen. So it's essentially, the same as a, wack would be, but it's, it's, it's the iPad. and then I just have illustrator open, on that. I drag the window down.

I've tried the Illustrated app, but again, it's, for me, it's like the native, I have all my customized keyboard shortcuts and I know what tools work for me. And [00:32:00] so yeah, I just drag that window down into the iPad and I would draw a lot of, hand-drawn stuff using the Apple pencil 

some icons are better to do with that and some aren't. So some of the icons that need to be a little more contained and a little more recognizable as, geometric shapes or whatever, I would use the mouse. But yeah, I tend to float between both. and I remember doing that for this project.

it was just like a custom brush I think I made, I don't even know when I made it. 'cause I have all of these millions of scans of different brush, strokes and stuff that I've done and scanned them in and use the image trace to turn them into vector brushes and stuff.

And I think I just grabbed a random one from some old, like brush pack that I made. God knows when. and yeah, that was the one that I ended up using for this set. So that's pretty cool that, some, brush from the archive ended up getting used on this

Jory: Yeah. That's great. Yeah, I mean, I love it. It's got so much personality. and it was really fun. I mean, I'll say it's really fun on Noah's behalf 'cause he did the bulk of the work here, if not all of the work. But, just like it has been fun for me working with other people's icon packs and creating some of these graphics where you get to imagine how they could be used and it's totally, it could be any, you know, just like the icon set could be anything.

These little graphics can be anything. And you're like, okay, how might you use this icon pack? 

Vic: Mm-hmm.

Jory: and so that was kind of where some of the fun little ideas that, came up with that. and I will say that I am. I'm one of those people who moves from Illustrator to Figma, 

Vic: I get it.

Jory: but

Vic: it's a good tool. It's especially for the refined systemization of iconography I totally see it. And, I love Figma, in my own way for certain things. for icon design and especially at a systematic level, it's perfect. but for that creative, outburst, it's definitely gonna be where I go back to my comfort zone.

I super appreciate you for letting me do that [00:34:00] as well. 'cause when we were talking, I was thinking, ah, I have a feeling this is gonna need to be in Figma, and I'm just going to like, turn into a robot again because, illustrate as like, you know, my, my paint brush and canvas, in my opinion, Figma is definitely the thing that I don't know as well.

So I immediately go into like, oh, I'm thinking about the tool versus just making the thing,

So I appreciated a bunch for you letting me, 

Jory: It all, as long as it ends up as a vector, we can pull it.

Vic: you said that, I remember you were in Slack. I think we set up a slack for this and you were like, as long as it's a vector, I was like, it was like a light shined from just the, the roof opened and I was just like,

Jory: Yeah, I mean, Figma is just a tool. They're both just tools and you use what you're comfortable with. I used to be much more comfortable in Illustrator and I, and I would say the exact same things you're saying right now. and I made the switch. when Noah joined Font Awesome.

Because of the collaboration that was like, pretty much it, the systemization the collaboration and that has made a world of difference for us in the way we do things. But prior to that, I loved Illustrator. You mentioned the iPad too. I actually, two of the packs that I made, I made one called Utility, which we released a couple months ago, and one called Whiteboard.

And Whiteboard is literally a hand-drawn version of utility, so it shares like the basic shapes and designs and stuff, I literally used my iPad and my apple pencil and traced utility. I had already designed utility and I went in and I was just like, it was a fun little thing to do. Like I was watching TV or something and I would just trace my own drawings and like just the act of doing that with an Apple pencil on a small screen, caused all sorts of random things to happen with a thick brush and looks all squeakly and, is great.

Vic: Yeah, that set looks great. And I think you're probably in the similar mindset that I was when I was working on this set. you'll know this when you've been designing icons for this long, you get told to make the same [00:36:00] icons.

There's only so many ways you can make a home icon or a hamburger icon. There's only so many ways we can, get flexible with this stuff. So being able to actually draw stuff with your hand, opens that door to, the throwing things at the wall side of the mind, you know, just like, ah, I could have a go at that.

I could see what that looks like. it's like a different experience than, what we used to with Icon Design. that's what I think, Font Awesome Is doing so well. It's like kind of breaking that cycle. It kind of plateaued. We had a lot of exploration back in the day with icons and then it got so systemized and so perfected that it kind of plateaued off into, that's just what icons look like 

Jory: Yeah.

Vic: every icon set kind of has the same, vibes and feelings stuff.

And it's super cool to see all these different personalities being, expressed throughout the,

Jory: Well you, because you don't do it with typefaces, right? 

Vic: exactly. Yeah.

Jory: people choose different typefaces 'cause they have different personalities and 'cause they fit a different project better or your brand better or your mood better. and there are gonna be old standbys that you want to use for like, a lot of things.

And that's totally okay and that's great. You don't have to do that with icons either. You can have an icon that is perfect for, you know, whatever the, the composition book or a, a teacher website and it doesn't have to look good on your bank. You know, you need to, but you know, comic sans everything.

Why not?

Vic: I'm here. I, I'm Yeah. I'm here for Comic Sans, to be honest. But yeah, I really appreciate that kind of approach to it. 'cause it's like a pendulum that swings, I feel like, and we went really creative for a while there, and then it swung back and it was really clean, really sleek, really, overly considered and overly thought through.

And it's like, let's swing the pendulum back into [00:38:00] something. where we get to express ourselves a little differently. And yeah, I love it. I love everything that's happening and I'm super, super proud to be part of this and to see it go live. I'm excited to see what people think 'cause it is so, unusual to see, such sketchy, icons, especially at the sizes they'll be used at and stuff.

I'm really excited to get in there and play with it myself, 

Jory: Well, I, can't thank you enough for saying yes to the project and, 

Matt: yeah. 

Jory: we have your number

Vic: I've got many, ways of expressing myself via iconography. Thank you.

Jory: Yeah.

Balancing Clarity and Creativity in Icon Design

Matt: I don't, I don't know if this is redundant because you're definitely in the ballpark of the question I'm about to ask, you're talking about the pendulum swinging from being very technical and precise on one end, and then super creative and maybe a little messy on the other end.

how do you think about, I don't know if splitting the differences is the right way to put it, but, the tension between clarity and creativity. how do you approach that and think that through?

Vic: Yeah, I think, it all depends on the brief, right? It depends, what size these things are gonna be displayed. That's basically, all we think about, when it comes to style, I think in my opinion anyway, if icons are gonna be displayed at a really small size, there's only so much wiggle room we have to play with the creative side of it.

So, really. Clarity comes first, if the size, is important. But the set that I've designed here, I don't think I was necessarily always thinking of clarity, because in my head I'm like, if you're gonna need an icon set that is gonna display it at 24 pixels, you've got plenty of options.

Like, go and have a look at another option. Let's talk about something that might be displayed a little bigger, or it might be, [00:40:00] played within different ways. but it can be used at that size. If we needed it to be, but it's not, you know, we're not talking about user experience here. We're not talking about, how an app is gonna function 

and so I think that's kind of where my brain kind of split a little bit with this project. because I had this free reign and it was more of a discussion around let's try and make something that works at small sizes, but that's not what's kind of, driving the entire style and creativity of it.

and it's kind of hard to get your head into that space, after doing those technical icons for so long. but I think for me, like the way that I tried to achieve this was. they're still pretty bulky lines and there's still minimal detail in there and they've got these like shadows that kind of add a bit of depth in places that we need them to.

so I tested them as I usually would, to make sure that they worked at small sizes, but really tried to be lenient with myself on, where the marker is between clarity and creativity. what I was asked for was something creative, something different. I wasn't asked to make an icon set that's gonna be displayed at 14 pixels or whatever.

What I was asked for was something different, something new, something we haven't seen before. And so I think that's what you have, that it comes with the brief, I think. Clarity versus creativity, really. the marker on that is size and how we're gonna display these things and how, you know, at what size we gonna, these are gonna be interacted with, from a user.

so for me, yeah, that's where my head goes. And for this set, I really tried to remove that clarity part of it a little bit. Not completely, they still have to work, but not to the point where it was limiting, making something new, you know what I mean? And really pushing the boundaries on what could be possible, if that makes sense.

Matt: It makes me think [00:42:00] about how when people get too technically minded about the sort of craft or science of something, you have to approach each project with a different mindset or have flexibility with that mindset. Yeah. Of course, clarity. People need to be able to understand and cognitively pick up on what it is that they're seeing.

But it really just depends on what are you going for here, you know, and You can't be too rigid on saying like, here are the parameters of how we always approach this. It just really depends on the setting, you know?

Vic: Yeah, and it's a great way to like remove that creativity as well. Sometimes you don't want too much wiggle room. I've had icon sets, you know, where I've created 500 icons in each one needed to be readable. 

That just requires a totally different outlook. You know, and as I said, for me, we have a lot of, repetitive kind of processes in Icon Design. And I think that what Font Awesome continues to do is try and kind of remove that a little bit just to see what's possible.

To see what else we can do. 'cause it's not always necessary. we're not always talking about these minuscule icons that are going to be displayed on a device, or we're not always talking about that. it's a language. iconography went very much into the space of, systemizing for use in, technology.

But realistic. if we think about the, before we hit this point, iconography has been used as it's been around as long as humans have. You know what I mean? That's how we've communicated for Millennium. it's beyond just technology. And so like, how can we think about it from that wider viewpoint rather than just being like, yeah, this needs to work like this small.

let's play with maybe [00:44:00] widening those, parameters a little bit.

Jory: But that's also what I love about it because. there are so many different ways you do with constraints. maybe those are narrowed a bit. we actually use the house icon as our little preview in our menus and stuff for each style. they all have their own house and I just love how the cognitive nature of it too, of how this different object can be interpreted as the same thing. Like the house I'm looking at right now that you drew with a little slope roof and the rectangular door and the little, window above it.

Circular window is like, it's different than the house in the chisel set. It's different than the house in the this, but it is still a house like, you know what makes it a house and it's like, okay, this combination of shapes. You can be creative with the cons, the constraints, but then. there's a beauty to the constraints as well, I guess. 

Vic: Yeah, they're pretty cool. Yeah, they're pretty cool.

They're all right. 

Matt: are pretty cool.

Jory: Pretty cool.

Matt:

Jory: Vic, if you had to do this over again, would you do anything different or do you have ideas for different things you might like to explore? Different techniques, different directions?

Vic: I think I would still want to explore what it means to, physically make these things with my hands versus, doing it, with the kind of strictness of the mouse and keyboard. I still think that's something I don't think I fully, you know, we, found that kind of style and we made that, but I still think there's, A million other options that we could look at for another set maybe more bouncy, there's so much I've noticed as I've started to get a bit older and started to look at what I want to be doing more versus what work is available, like what I wanna actually do.

It's all about like that tactile. and I don't know if this is just 'cause I'm a bit fatigued with [00:46:00] how clean and crisp we went there for a while. you know, technology is so smooth now, everything is, so use user friendly and nice and smooth and, and calm and easy to, to look at and use.

and I think I'm still craving a bit of that. like what does it mean to just put some human mess in the mix and like, see what it looks like, see what it feels like, have that sort of tactile, touchable, feeling to it. So I think that's what I would still explore, and try and kind of, I think I'd love to play a lot more with color as well.

If you were to ever, offer me this again, it would be like, I know that they need to be displayed, as a single color, as part of the system, but like what would it mean to

Jory: Right now, we've talked about how we could support color. We have ideas,

Vic: Yeah. I love that idea of 

Jory: duotone. 

Vic: you know, the abstract, kind of like, how do you tell a story as part of the, with, the color as well as, as the, the image itself and the icon itself. What, how does the color impact that story and how does it help solidify the story? because that's what icons are, right?

They're just little messages, stories in like, as quick as we can fire them out, this little tiny thing. So how does color kind of impact that? 

Matt: Sign her up for another icon pack. 

Jory: Yeah, we

Vic: Love me some icons.

Jory: we've got a few more. we haven't fully announced what's let. 

Releasing Icon Packs and Delayed Gratification

Jory: What's weird about this project and something that I haven't had in my earlier career, is the delay between actually creating it and getting it out to the public.

there was this whole process and like we were saying, it was like two years ago that you did this for us. on one hand pat ourselves on the back because we knew what we wanted to do and we're like, we gotta start this now if we're going to release it into years.

Otherwise we would, you know, be playing [00:48:00] catch up. But now the frustrating part is like, we have your pack completed and we have some other packs that are already completed ready to go, and like we, an argument to be made to just like dump 'em and get 'em out there. But we also, like, I love being able to release this and kind of focus our energy and attention on this one pack 

Having split focus and you know, we get to have a conversation with you and share it when we release this and we get to do all sorts. So, these are all things that happened a while ago and we are finally being able to share 'em with the world. And it's so nice. Matt, you know, we've had many podcast conversations where I've said, oh, I can't talk about that yet.

Oh, we've got cool stuff coming. we have your pack. We have, at least 3 or four other packs that we worked with other designers that are coming out soon. And they're all awesome and are all just like, as you start to see the chisel that Laura did the graphite that Vic did and the other ones, it is so cool to just see how.

Different they are and how none of them so far at least are pacs that I could have designed. And they just came, sprung from the mind and the creativity of these awesome designers that I feel so, so grateful and lucky to have worked with. or not even really to have worked with, to have like, said like, Hey, do this for us, and like I'm hands off.

Um, which is cool. So,

Vic: like, to speak to that real quick, I think I find it really, gratifying to hear that you are saying, we're not looking to just dump all this out there In a world where, content is key and that constant release of stuff, like all the time.

Just to keep up with the momentum of the internet nowadays, to say, nah, we're gonna take our time. you know, you think about Spotify, my little one, he's 10, he's on my Spotify and he is just got everything. And I'm like, I feel sad that he doesn't [00:50:00] just have 12, cassette tips like I where you can just enjoy the ones that you have and that's what you have.

So you either listen to them or you don't. And that's kind of the same thing with the icon sets. Like people get to actually use 'em. If you just dumped them all, everyone would be like, ah, I don't know. it would be like too much. It would be like not knowing where to start and also not really appreciating.

The amount of effort and work and time and love that I've gone into them. I find it really lovely that that's the attitude that you continue to have. It's like, no, we're gonna do this slow. We're gonna let people enjoy each set, you know, and really get used to them and see like sit in it a little while before we move on to the next one.

I think that's really lovely and I think, yeah, it's what continues to make Font Awesome, so special. So, thank you on behalf of all people who wanna slow down.

Jory: Well, you are welcome. I don't, I mean, I would love to say it's all intentional. some of it certainly is. Some of it's just like, you know, we're busy and we, you know, we, 

Vic: No, it's more profound than that. 

Jory: yes. 

Vic: It's considered. 

Jory: Cut that. Matt, will we cut that and make us sound heroes?

Matt: you bet, you bet. Well, I, it's interesting to talk to other designers 'cause we had non, font awesome verse folks on the, the podcast in this last round. And I kept hearing these repeated refrains that is really similar to what you're talking about is, Especially designers that were making physical objects as just for fun, you know?

And we really value that at Font Awesome too. We like to make swag and just have fun with it and, and things like

Vic: I have the mouse mat right here. 

Matt: Nice. the mindset that folks have around that kind of thing, and what you're saying too about constantly consuming and technology makes it so easy to just consume. I mean, you know, even just scrolling through your social whatever, consuming, [00:52:00] consuming, consuming. And there's something about that, sort of delayed gratification of having to slow down.

and when you said, when you're a kid and you have a dozen cassette tapes of like, maybe not great bands, but you know. Because of that limitation. You learn to really go deep. I've tried to have conversations with my kids about this in the past. I'm like, well, you know, back in my day, you buy a cassette at the record store and you're stuck with it.

They don't let you return it. Which is very unlike you go, you build a gigantic playlist on Spotify and you don't really sit with getting to the depth of what the artist is trying to get across because you're not really forced to sit with it. Right. So I, I just think about all these connections and I, I love that on the one hand, J like, maybe this is imposed on us because we're just human beings and, you know, we can't do all of the things.

But I also do like to think that there's a kind of built in value that we have for that, and that we attract folks like Vic and other designers that we've talked to that have that similar sensibility. It just feels more human to 

Jory: Well, yeah, and I don't mean to underplay it we don't have to post something just to post something. if we're gonna, ask for people's attention and time, it should be worth it. the reason vinyl has had a resurgence is that people are craving that tactile, take a breath.

you have to get up and flip a final record when it hits the end of its side. And there is a deeper connection, on the music front that you make to things that way because you are physically interacting with it instead of letting it be background. it's why I hear, tons of people who are, 

Digital, natives will start woodworking or take up hobbies that require I'm, I'm starting to learn how to make pizza. Like all these things get you away from the screen, make you slow down a little bit. if we can get more of that in the online world, the [00:54:00] digital world too, that I, I, that can't be a bad thing I don't think.

Let's slow down everywhere. I'm okay with that.

Matt: Yep. Yes, please.

Vic: I agree. Yeah.

Matt: Vic Bell, thank you so much for taking some time, and being patient with us as we sorted out the scheduling and everything. I really enjoyed the conversation. For folks that are maybe curious about the work that you do, where, where would you send them?

Vic: just search Vic Bell on Instagram and I'm, just drawing stuff and talking about my feelings.

Matt: Excellent. Thank you for, we're so thankful that you worked with Font Awesome. And that we have an awesome new icon to share with the world. So thank you so much.

Vic: Thank you so much. It was really nice to talk to you both. and thanks for letting me work on this. It was a blast. And yeah, I'm around if you wanna do it all again.

Jory: So noted

Matt: Awesome. Thank you, Vic.

Vic: have a good one.