laura bee: [00:00:00] And initially that was like, yes, dream project. I get to do whatever I want. I get to work with my friends. that's amazing. And then that very quickly devolved into, oh, like what do I do? I'm so used to designing icons for other people and having a very solid direction on where I'm going. And I now don't have that.

What do I do? I'm like completely untethered, like emotionally, spiritually, creatively, the lot. 

Matt: Welcome to Podcast. Awesome. Where we chat about icons, design, tech, business, and nerdery with members of the font Awesome team. I'm your host, Matt Johnson, and today, Jory, Raphael and myself, we're chatting with none other than Icon Designer Laura Bow Hill, otherwise known as Laura b. About creating the chisel icon [00:01:00] pack for font.

Awesome. Seven. And in this episode, you'll hear how a dream project turned into a brief existential crisis, how type and icon design influenced each other and how Laura built one of the most expressive icons. That we've ever released. And just a quick FYI, if you want to see a visual demo of the chisel icon set, there's an extended video version of this episode available on YouTube, and I've put the link in the description.

Without further ado, here's Laura Bow Hill.

laura bee: Right. 

Jory: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. Excellent. Well, t

Meet Laura and Chisel

Matt: hank you Laura Bo Hill for coming on podcast. Awesome. We really appreciate you, wrangling the different time zones. We're in different parts of the world. We're really thrilled that we finally were able to make this happen, so thank you.

laura bee: Thank you. It's so nice to finally be here and having this chat after a very long time in the making.

Matt: Yeah. And we were joking [00:02:00] before we pressed record. We'd love to just hear you, talk, because you have such a lovely accent. So, please don't let us get in the way. 

Well, Laura, you created, we've been working with different icon designers

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Matt: the release of font Awesome. Seven. We have these lovely icon packs, um, and you were the first one out of the gate to create the, the Chisel icon pack, and everybody's just, uh, raving about this, uh, icon pack. I don't know, uh, maybe I can just sort of lobb it over to you guys to sort of talk shop.

But,

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Matt: maybe, maybe you can talk jury a little bit about how you met Laura and, approached her, her to make the icon set and how that all came about.

Jory: Yeah. I mean, for, for anyone who's following along or, or folks who are listening for the first time. We, um, 

Why Small Batch Packs

Jory: when we released Font Awesome 7, we released these new, what we internally for a long time just called these small batch packs. And the idea behind them were, they were. These kind of more contained icon packs that, um, didn't have to be thousands and thousands of icons deep were just kind of the, [00:03:00] the most used icons you need for a website. when we had the idea for it, we realized that like Font Awesome, we've got two icon designers. Um, a lot of my time these days is actually spent not doing icon design, so you know, even fewer when you, when you do that math. And we thought that it'd be really fun to bring in outside people to, to help with these packs.

Um, and Laura was one of the first ones I thought, uh, designers I thought of when the kind of, we were scoping out the brief for the project. Uh, We I don't, I'm not sure we've met in person. Um,

laura bee: We have not, 

Jory: we 

laura bee: been racking my brain and as to how we first met, and I'm sure it was Glory days of Twitter, probably like 2014 or something like that, 

Jory: early 

laura bee: we've never met in person. 

Jory: dribble maybe. Um, uh, I don't know. We talked about, ha have you ever, did you ever go to we're icon designers and like attracts like, I guess, and, you know, just [00:04:00] always seeing Laura post projects and, and work and has just always been kind of in my head as one of the like, finest icon designers the planet.

Um, and so for this project, I mean, I literally just think it was an email or an email 

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: or a, maybe we're in a Slack channel together or something. I don't, I don't quite remember, 

laura bee: Yeah, I don't remember either. I, you definitely sent me a message and then we had a call about it, right? 

Freedom Becomes Crisis

laura bee: And, and you were like, Hey, you can do whatever you wanna do. And I think that the brief was essentially make something that's more expressive, that works for some people, but doesn't work for everybody.

Right. 

Jory: Yeah. 

laura bee: And initially that was like, yes, dream project. I get to do whatever I want. I get to work with my friends. that's amazing. And then that very quickly devolved into, oh, like what do I do? I'm so used to designing icons for other people and having a very solid [00:05:00] direction on where I'm going. And I now don't have that.

What do I do? I'm like completely untethered, like emotionally, spiritually, creatively, the lot. And I was like, I dunno what to do, where, where do I go? So it was a bit of a panic after the initial excitement of what do I even want? but I, in that moment, procrastinated as you do when you don't know the answer.

Typeface Spark and Chisel Style

laura bee: And I procrastinated reading a book. I can't remember what the book is because this was like, what, three years ago? But I do remember that this book had like a beautiful typeface on the cover and it had this gorgeous contrast between the strokes, um, like the stroke contrast, uh, between the thick and thins.

And I was like, you know, when we do icons, we often will pick a singular stroke weight. That's like the basics of, system design. Like, we'll pick one weight and we'll put it across the entire [00:06:00] system. but what if, is there a way I could replicate that stroke contrast in an icon? and that sort of became my tether and.

My goal, it was like really exciting to think like, can I do that? Like an exciting challenge and something that would probably never come up in a client project. and I didn't know if it would work, but that became what I was like the driving force behind the project. And it's also worth noting that I didn't set out to make an icon set that looked like a chisel tipped marker pen.

That's just what it looked like. and I think somebody at font Awesome. Named it that. Right? Like, that didn't come from me. Yeah.

Jory: Well, I mean, we went through a few different ideas for naming, but it kind of just felt, it felt right. Um, but no, 

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: It did not have a name for the entire time you were designing it. I, I think it was 

laura bee: No, 

Jory: putting it all together that we had to come up with 

laura bee: but it, it makes complete sense. It totally works for how the [00:07:00] icon ended up looking. But it didn't really, I didn't plan for it to look like that.

Constraints and Craft Rules

Jory: Yeah, I mean we, when I wrote the brief, I, I, kind of tried to step outside of the project and think of like, what is a brief I would want to get as a icon designer and just give that freedom, but have a little bit of structure. But, Vic said this too when we talked to Vic, but like, didn't 

Matt: Gonna say the same thing. Yeah.

Jory: existential crisis.

Like it feels, it kind 

laura bee: You did? 

Jory: I,

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: sorry, not sorry. I guess, uh, it, it worked out, but, Yeah.

I mean, 'cause that's, I always say like a break blank canvas is pretty scary. Like 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: beauty about I can design is that you can, when you make those decisions and you make, put those constraints on, on yourself, then you can start to be. Actually more creative than you could be when, when you didn't have anything. that may have been the only style you showed us as an idea. Like, it 

laura bee: I think so. Yeah. 

Jory: this'll work, but Yeah. 

laura bee: Yeah. 'cause I, I just got so [00:08:00] excited about it once I had that problem in my mind and I was like, I'm just going to, before I go in and like figure out other thing, I just really wanna show you this 'cause I'm excited about it. but yeah, that, that ended up being it and we just ran with it.

Jory: Yeah. that was what I wanted from the brief was like, if 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: you've a style you've wanted to play with or, you know, you discovered it along the way here, but that, you know, you kind of want to go and keep, keep playing in that, in that visual 

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: So, um, Yeah, it's awesome.

And the, and the result is unlike any icon set I've ever seen. So,

laura bee: Yeah, what? When I was making it, I was like, oh, this is why it doesn't exist, because it can't, because it was really hard for a time. I say, what if I, what if I set myself up for here?

Jory: Yeah. Well, but 

Matt: So 

Jory: can 

Matt: you. That's right,

laura bee: Yes.

Jory: we even actually, Noah, one of the things we've been doing is like, as we moved along with the project, we realize that like there was like one or two additional icons that [00:09:00] like a, a rectangle in a certain tall rectangle 

laura bee: Mm-hmm. 

Jory: the fun, 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: We were like, oh, we need to include this in every one of the sets. And so we went in, I should say he went in and like tried to mimic the style and it had, the rules were there, like there, there was a rhyme and reason to it. It looks kind of 

laura bee: Yeah. 

Jory: crafted, but, 

laura bee: Mm-hmm. 

Jory: there is a method to the madness.

Um, that, that, yeah, that was, great to find. 

 can you walk us through a little bit how, um, your process for deciding to do an icon set like this? Like, did you, um, were you feeling like, okay, I want to challenge myself to do something different than what I normally would do? Or, or, or was it. Yeah. C can you walk us through that a little bit, like your thinking process when you were like in the middle of that crisis, like, oh, I have a, a blank canvas.

Matt: I'm not quite sure

laura bee: Yeah.

Matt: but I think I might want to do this.[00:10:00]

laura bee: Yeah. Well, I think it's because I, I ended up where I did. Because I historically don't do personal projects. Um, I don't really work outside of my typical work hours because I, it's not good for my brain. I like to have other hobbies like going to the gym or painting or sewing. I read a lot. and that is essential for my brain.

And because I don't do self-driven projects, I don't really know like what I want from an icon because I'm always designing for other people. so I think that's where the existential crisis came from, because it was like, I don't really know what my concept would look like, but then when I came up with this problem of like, oh, I've not really seen that kind of stroke.[00:11:00]

Work in an icon before that really grabbed my attention of can I do something that I'm not sure if it's gonna work? And it's something that's a challenge. And I know I'm working with my very talented icon design friends who can be like, no, Laura, this doesn't work. Or maybe if I'm really stuck with something, like they can see a different way that it could work.

like it felt like a safe space to try something more technically challenging. And that was what drove everything for me.

Matt: When you, um, 

Icon Design Origins

Matt: you don't just do icon design, you do o other design

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Correct. And, and how does, how does icon design And then I'm thinking of the conversation we had with Vic Bell and it, had this lovely conversation about. she sort of saw all these different aspects of her life and sort of internal world of like, oh, I, I've identified this is really the sweet spot of the kind of work that I love to do and all these different, [00:12:00] things are sort of coming together to, to point me to that.

How does icon design fit into design work in general in your world, and how do you think about design work specifically?

laura bee: well for Icon Design, and I think maybe why that really resonates for me is it goes all the way back to. My education, I studied graphic design at college and university. And I mean, even when I chose that, I didn't even really understand graphic design. I just knew I was a creative person. I loved drawing my whole life.

I loved nothing more than a new pack of pens and paper. That's all I wanted. but when I did my course at college and university, I learned about illustration and just naturally gravitated towards that. And I was, I found myself answering design projects with a lot of illustration driven work.

[00:13:00] And when I left, when I graduated and I was looking for a job, I couldn't find anything that felt right for me. And everyone's advice was always, you know. Don't freelance straight out of school. Make sure you get experience. And I didn't follow that advice and I decided to just freelance straight out of school.

But what was great about that was I got a desk at a coworking space that also happened to have a startup accelerator program in there. And so you have in this one room a bunch of teams who don't have a lot of money and need a lot of design work. And then you have someone who is. Eager to do anything and doesn't charge very much money.

And I got to try on a bunch of hats. And this is when I discovered Icon Design. I was doing everything from like landing pages, logos, t-shirts, business cards, and a lot of [00:14:00] icons. and this was my first kind of introduction to Icon Design. And what really resonated with me was that it's a design project and, you know, you are answering a brief for someone, but the way in which you're doing that is illustration.

icons are essentially tiny illustrations. So it was the perfect blend of the two for my brain. I got to problem solve and work in a system, but I got to draw tiny pictures, which is what I've always done my whole life. it came up organically, but then it really stuck.

Matt: That's great. it's funny how I can see what you're saying when folks are giving you advice too. Um, you know, don't do this with your career. You want to kind of start in this way. And I can see the value of being more of a generalist where you're like, okay, I'm entering into this world professionally and I need to be able to, you know, spin all these plates and have some skills, broadly. but at some point it's [00:15:00] sort of diminishing returns. You know, I, it seems like there's a lot of wisdom to this idea of like, really double down on your strengths, because that's where the most creative flow is gonna come from, and that's where you're gonna get the most, result everybody takes a different approach to that, it's sad when you see folks kinda get stuck on that sort of generalist mindset and they don't really, have an opportunity to really let their, their strengths find. So that seemed like a pretty wise move on your

laura bee: Well, it seemed like a wise move, but I honestly at the time it was just pure naivety and just thinking, I don't wanna do that job. That's like a lot of typography and layouts and not, it's not exciting to me. So it was, I. Now in hindsight, it seems wise and I'm so glad it worked out that way. But it was just a bit of, yeah, just, I'll just do this and see what happens.

You know, I haven't really, at this stage, I don't have anything to lose, so,

Matt: That's great. Love it.

Jory: That's, [00:16:00] that's huge. And you, I mean, and you've worked, now you've worked for some pretty, pretty big companies and, and well-known names in the 

laura bee: yeah.

Jory: and, you know, people have seen your work without knowing it was your work. Um, and that's, that's magical. 

Freelance Life and Creative Boundaries

laura bee: Yeah, it's really wild when I think about how many icons are out there, and as well, I've, I've freelanced this whole time too, since I'm 37 now. I had to think, I always forget now. Um, I'm 37 now and I have freelanced the entire time. I have never had a full-time job in my life. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Jory: Wow, that's so funny. 'cause I've done both and I don't know, I don't know that I'd want a freelance ever again. 

laura bee: Oh, really? A lot of people say, I mean, it is hard. It, 

Jory: yeah, 

laura bee: it's like, it's both, there's a, there's a trade off for doing full-time. There's a trade off for doing freelance, but I think this suits my brain. 

Jory: yeah, Yeah. 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: found a pretty [00:17:00] sweet spot at, at our company where a lot of it feels enough freedom that it feels a little bit more, um, freelance, than, than a typical office job, um, at Font Awesome anyway, so. You know, we can work. We, the, the, this project was on a whim. Like, we were just like, what if we do this and we got to do it?

I mean, the podcast, what we're on right now was a whim that Matt had and we're doing it. So, um, 

laura bee: Yeah, I love that.

Jory: yeah. 

Matt: It's funny how, uh. At the beginning of the conversation, we were talking about that sort of like the existential crisis of like a blank slate. Like, here do something cool, and let's just see what happens in your, like for me, I, I, there was, I resonated with that as well. And it's funny that you mentioned that Jory as far as like the work environment and the style that, that we work where it, it does sort of create this a little bit of a crisis of like that, that blank slate.

Like, well, what, what do I really want to do? You know? And,

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I see over and over again, it's the style I, I tend to see, like with my coworkers, sort of that style of working and, um, sort of setting the stage. which it's a, it's a double-edged sword, you know, because on one hand you're like, uh. Uh, yeah, it, it's just, it's sort of, it's interesting to reflect on that.

Um, but it also shows that we work with other folks like yourself, um, that are like-minded and really thrive in that, you know, when they find that sweet spot and, uh, I don't know, just goes to show where we're just trying to create a little happy little band of, uh, icon designers and developers that are like-minded, you know?

Jory: This and this project here was a little, I mean, you, you as a, working for some larger companies, I'm sure you've kind of experienced some of this, but for me, uh, having. Like we said, this is three years in the making. Like we, you were one of the first icon designers we contacted and we made the decision that we didn't want to announce our, the, the Font Awesome 7 until, until we had everything just about ready to go. Um, which is not typically how we do things. We often will announce something as we're working on it [00:18:00] and then like work up to release it in phases. So, boy was it hard to just sit on this to know that we had this, you know?

these great icons just sitting in the bank, you know, gathering dust until we could get them out in the world.

So do you have, I mean, is that typical in, in your, the type of work you do where, where you're kind of just waiting for something to see the light of day? 

laura bee: Always, pretty much always, every project I will, you know, it's always like a, there's always a deadline and I'm, and oftentimes there's a bit of a rush and. Then it, it doesn't see the light of day for quite a while. So I am very used to it now. it's kind of nice because I, get to finish the icon set and then there's like a good chunk of time where I haven't looked at it and then I see it again and I'm like, oh, it's really nice.

'cause I think if it launched immediately after I'd done it, I'm like, I've looked at it too much. You know? So it's kind of nice. 

Jory: Absence makes the heart grow fonder, 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.[00:19:00]

Jory: I guess. Yeah. Well, it, it chisel itself. It was such a unique set that like we, was like our flagship icon pack that we, we released with, with the new Pro Plus stuff. And it was, released a few other ones that we had designed in-house, but yours was the only one when we had launched that was designed by someone outside the company.

we had that much faith in it and that much liked it so much. So, It's 

laura bee: You're just a bunch of cutie patties, aren't you?

Jory: well, know. Yeah. Uh, but we point, I mean, I pointed it. It's the one, it's the one where I'm like, it's the greatest example of like, yeah, this is what this thing is, this is what we're trying to do. Um, that, um, it looks unlike anything we've done. Um, and, uh, and I've actually, I gotta find it. I don't have it here, but, uh, but we've had some people share using it in projects, which is just

laura bee: I would love to see that. 'cause I am so curious who this is for, you know, 

Jory: Yeah. 

laura bee: because it's the first time that I [00:20:00] wasn't thinking about that.

Jory: And I think even if, even if it's not for anyone, I've seen it, but even if it, it's just, it's, I'm glad it's in the world, so, yeah. 

laura bee: I'm glad I got to make it.

 Um, Matt, what's your favorite 

Matt: Yes sir. 

Jory: we have? Hmm. Do you have a. 

Matt: Favorite Icon pack. Laura's of course. 

Jory: Yeah. Good. 

Matt: It's lovely. not dog jelly. Those are pretty fun as well. I like those ones. 

Jory: not 

Matt: Yeah.

Jory: that actually if you, if you not dog Noah made, and that that was the icon pack that spurred the whole thing. The, that was, we had seen a typeface similar to it, we were just looking at this bl bubbly, you know, bubbly typeface. it was just, that was the little nagging question in our heads.

It was like, I bet you can make [00:21:00] an eye contact that looked like that. And we didn't know if we could. And so we, we were like, okay, we could, and we did it. and then that just like opened the flood gates and we're like, okay, now we need more. So, 

laura bee: It's funny how often type ends up being the inspiration for Icon design. 

Jory: Mm-hmm. 

laura bee: I get asked to do that a lot. For brands 

Jory: or to do a,

laura bee: to like, they might have like a custom typeface designed for their brand, and oftentimes they'll ask me to make my icons kind of feel seamless with the typeface.

Jory: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. now we just need to do the reverse. We need someone to make a typeface.

that works with 

laura bee: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Matt: Why not

laura bee: is nobody doing that?

Jory: Yeah. 

Matt: that makes me think, that's so interesting. 'cause it makes me think about how, um, as a, a chunk of the work that I do at Font Awesome. And, and what I've done professionally over the years as a, is as a writer. And it was funny, I was in a, this is probably a side conversation, we'll see if it works or not. Uh, but I was working at a, [00:22:00] Consultancy years ago where they were refurbishing the website and, the designer, he was giving us some mockups, like, here's what it's gonna look like. Um, this will give you just sort of a feel for, you know, the changes that I'm making and, course she had like Lorem, Lorem Ipsum text in there. And, the senior writer at the time was kind, I could tell she was sort of irritated with it. And it, it, it was sort of this idea of like, oh, here we go again. You know, like you're, you're showing the cool website, how cool it looks, but like the meaning or the purpose of this page has everything to do with what's being communicated, you know, but you just throw Lorem Ipsum in there or whatever.

And, you know, she, she would, she was highly opinionated and I was like, oh, oh, interesting. I, I guess I'd never really thought about that. And so I got to thinking about, um, how those things work together. And of course, you know, there's a good purpose for Lorem Ipsum texts, right? but the, it [00:23:00] makes me think of sort of like the, what is it that you're conveying and communicating in something and what kind of comes first, you know? So it's interesting to hear you reflect on how. A typeface would sort of drive, the look and feel maybe of a icon set that would come alongside of it. You know, uh, I don't know if there's a question there, but I, I just, it's interesting to hear you guys reflect on that.

Jory: Yeah.

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: me, you, you, it's interesting 'cause you do think about, you'll oftentimes design something or there'll be a brief or where you are, you know, scrolling through typefaces or icons or something to fit that. Like you, you have the design, you have the encapsulating design, and then you're coming in to find the little pieces to fill it and. think there is something pretty fun about doing it the opposite direction, where you take inspiration from the smaller things and build out from there and see how 

laura bee: [00:24:00] Mm-hmm.

Jory: like, just think even thinking about Chisel. I know this is, you know, we're talking about it a lot, but like, if that were the inspiration, like, okay, well what if I want to use this as the basis for this brand or for this project or website.

Like let let that inform the, the higher level design choices instead of the opposite way around, um, 

laura bee: I think that that would give me an existential crisis because I'm so used to working the other way around.

when I work with clients, nine times out of 10 I'm being asked to tailor an icon set to their brand, and there are multiple ways you can do that. There is type, which we've talked about, and you know, a brand might have a custom typeface or they might just have a very type heavy.

Brand in general. They might have an expressive illustration style that you can take inspiration from stylistically. But [00:25:00] also in terms of the types of metaphors that have been used, I like to have that type of, cohesion where the, the language that we're using as consistent and even down to like the tone of voice of the brand.

Like is it important that it is friendly and approachable and human, or do we need to do something that is serious and maybe a little bit more clinical? Which isn't a bad thing. It's like we just need to figure out like what, what tone we're applying to the icon set. And I often look at that as like finding my tether to the brand.

Like I mentioned before, I was, I was untethered. 

Jory: Hmm. 

laura bee: I, um, and. For me, when I do work like this, I don't think of it as coming up with something new. I think of it, uh, as like I put my detective hat on and I am looking for what already exists and what can I take from the brand and sort of leverage and put into my consistent, because I [00:26:00] want what I create to feel like it's always been there.

Like it's part of the fixtures and fittings of the brand to the point where you almost don't even notice. Um, so that's how I approach it really when I'm designing for these companies. And the other way around would really throw me a loop.

Jory: Well, Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I, I don't know, unless it is a side project or unless it is on a

laura bee: Yeah, sure.

Jory: know when, when that would be appropriate or come up in, in a, a standard project. Um. Yeah, because, yeah, because as icon designer as we are often coming in after the fact 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: certainly far, far in the process. Um, but, you know, I think it's fun to kind of push back a little bit and see if you can make ripples that had had the other direction up the chain.

laura bee: I will start, I'll start doing that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and ripple on my next project.

Jory: yeah.

You said, so you said, but you said you don't, it, it, it provided, it was a little bit of an existential crisis, [00:27:00] but you also said that you don't typically design in your off time. You don't, you 

laura bee: no, 

Jory: cross cross those streams. Is that I mean, I get it. um, but that's intentional that. you 

laura bee: yeah.

Jory: take off your designer hat. [00:28:00] Mm-hmm. Yep. 

laura bee: that's, um, really helpful. And I think as well, that's maybe why I've never had a full-time job or don't really have a desire to have a full-time job because again, maybe too much of the same thing. I find it a little bit claustrophobic, 

Jory: Yeah, 

laura bee: you know?

Jory: that makes sense. I mean, for my part, I finally learned to say no to, to people asking me to do stuff outside of work and it's, oh, that was freeing. 

laura bee: Mm-hmm. 

Jory: but 

laura bee: Yep.

Jory: it was a weird shift where I couldn't design was my outlet, that I wasn't always able to do during my older jobs. I just enjoyed doing it and I did it on my own time.

And that was like my, that was my little project that I would do while I was, you know, watching TV at night or something. Just designing little icons. And so the, the shift from that becoming my full-time job. which felt great, but then yeah, you, I don't, didn't [00:29:00] have much capacity outside of the, the, you know, the daily work to, to do more beyond that.

and I'm only just finding a little bit of time to, to kind of play in that realm again right now. But, I dunno, there's no point to that. It's just, it's just, Yeah. the b boundaries can be important, I think. and I worry sometimes that doing it as my day job can kind of, could take the magic out of it, um,

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: me, but 

laura bee: also think it's just important to have your brain flex in other. Pursuits, right? It's like whether you have the best ideas when you're in the shower, like constantly designing icons where you are not giving your brain enough room to breathe. 

Jory: Yeah. 

laura bee: are human too. 

Jory: Hmm. 

laura bee: We spend an awful lot of time looking at screens.

Matt: Yeah.

Jory: We're doing it right now. 

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: um, Yeah.

I had a breakthrough recently, which I don't, I mean, maybe it's not a breakthrough, but where I realized something about myself, which is that I really [00:30:00] like, solving puzzles like, not just, like physical puzzle, but like that is like, oh, that is kind of how I'm wired.

And that's what I like about Icon Design. It's just like you're solving a little puzzle and then like you give me, you know, some constraints or gimme any design problem or need to remodel our kitchen or whatever it may be. Like, I enjoy that type 

laura bee: Yep.

Jory: Um, I don't know. It seems like a, a, a, you know, middle age revelation that I'm like, 

laura bee: It's such, it's no, it's such a like icon design is such a puzzle, whether it is like you are trying to figure out how to fit an icon that inherently has more detail. Into this tiny box that has limited pixel real estate. 

Jory: Yep. 

laura bee: That can be a, and you can, like I said, be literally debating over pixels. I tell my friends that aren't designers that how is your day?

And I'm like, oh, I was, you know, debating over this one pixel. They think I've lost my mind. But [00:31:00] it's like, it is, it's such a puzzle and you just have to keep pushing through it. And the, there's always a solution. And it's, it's the same with like metaphors too. You can, that can be the puzzle as well of like, how can I make whatever it is I'm designing, read, or say what I want it to say.

Like, we're not always just designing like a, like a person for a profile. Sometimes you've gotta try and communicate a little bit more than that or something a little bit more complex. And that can be the puzzle too. 

Icon Design Flow State

laura bee: But yeah, if you, if you like puzzles and you don't, and you're not an icon designer and maybe you should learn, you'd probably like it.

Jory: yep, yep. Do you 

Matt: I love what you're saying too. Go. Go ahead, j.

Jory: No, I was just gonna say, do you like the, um, I don't wanna say monotony 'cause that's not the right word, but like, the, the, like, I find that you can, I can get into a zone when I'm designing a lot of icons or just like, 

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: and I, I'm probably unique like this, but I find that I can [00:32:00] watch, a movie while designing icons. 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: there's just, I, it's a different part of my brain. Like I'm 

laura bee: Yes.

Jory: the movie fully, but like I can kind of, kind of do both at once 'cause it's different parts of my psyche. But I do like sometimes that, you know, you're the deep down, you're really close to it and you're just like in that zone. 

laura bee: Yeah. Once the like main decisions are out the way of like the, the metaphors and like the styling and we kind of know where we're going, then yes. That I oftentimes have to watch something or listen to an audio book. I to kind of help me stay focused and I can just go and go and go and go and I'm just like, you've lost me.

I don't, I I'm not connected to reality anymore. 

Jory: Yeah, it's kind of, It's, 

laura bee: it's 

Jory: You, you

laura bee: it's nice, it's like a nice floor state to get into. Mm-hmm.

Matt: Y

Creativity Needs Breaks

Matt: eah, I was thinking that I, I like what you guys are saying too about, you know, Laura, you said when something comes to [00:33:00] you in the shower, you know, in, in a situation where maybe your brain has been so engaged and it's sort of flooded or, or the circuits are just of like, okay, I need to be done. And then you come, there's a solution that comes in an unex in an unexpected time.

It, it makes me think of and, and we really put an emphasis on, on this at FA Awesome. Where we talk about, and we have permission. I'm really thankful for that. There's a value to just the right amount of time not doing your job because. There's a recognition that every part of the work that we do, it's, it's connected to many different facet facets of our lives.

And creativity comes from a lot of different places, and it helps us do our best work, you know? and if you whole personality is like one certain aspect of your life, it seems like there's sort of joy [00:34:00] or meaning or, something that's missed when someone's so in the wrong kind of way and grinding it out.

It, I, in a past life, I, while I, I still, um, play music, but I, I kind of, in a past life like that was sort of all my eggs were in that basket, you know? And, uh, and now I think. Friends of mine that like found a career in music as an example. I'm like, on one hand I'm like, well, that great, you know, that's great for them, but when their whole life is that, it feels like you gotta have some other things going on in your life for this to really be alive and sort of inform your work, you know? And I think that just, I think that goes for almost anything, you know? And like, you're saying, J like, you know, at a certain time of life you have these revelations. And I, I think that that's just like maturity that comes with time when you're young, I think we're often so dead set on one thing.

Like, I need to become a master at this one thing. And you grind it out, you grind it out. then it's sad if people get stuck there because so much creative energy comes from different aspects of, of our lives, you know? And um. I don't know. That's just sort of what comes to mind as you guys are talking.

laura bee: Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. You've got a, if that's all you do, it really does take the joy out of it. variety is the spice of life, as they say.

Matt: That's right. Yep. Yep.

Icon Puzzle Side Project

Jory: I actually, I gotta take a note on that 'cause I am, I'm making, uh, shown this to Matt already, but, uh, I have a little icon puzzle game that I'm 

laura bee: Oh, 

Jory: right now. 

laura bee: nice.

Jory: Like I made, 

Matt: Oh, that's very cool. By the way, I, I saw that in Slack yesterday.

Jory: a while ago, this little icon puzzle book that has 

laura bee: Nice. Mm-hmm.

Jory: um, that's my little fun side project that I'm working on now.

But, uh, it's all about little phrases and turning into icon, so that's variety of spice of life. That's a good one. I'm, I'm taking a note and I'm gonna make an icon puzzle out of it at 

Matt: There you go.

laura bee: Yeah.

Matt: There's a puzzle on there.

laura bee: My brain's already [00:35:00] trying to figure out what it would be.

Jory: Yeah, I don't know that one. It's gonna be a hard one. But like I did the Great Gatsby and I did a icon of a, a cheese grater 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: and two cats, a bee. Great kasby. 

laura bee: okay. Yeah. Uh

Jory: can do, 

Matt: Nice.

Jory: you know, little slant, slant, 

laura bee: mm-hmm.

Jory: or 

Matt: Yeah. 

Jory: Yeah. Oh yeah. We had to make this icon as well. A little not deaf. Um, yep. 

Matt: So 

Jory: I don't 

Matt: how do you think, how do you, '

Jory: em. I. 

Matt: there's, that's a great set. 

Clarity Versus Creativity

Matt: How, how do you think about, kind of splitting the difference between, conveying a feeling and and or, or a personality, uh, through the, because when I go to say your, like your dribble pager, so much like, joyful, happy, just. just. Um, lovely illustrations and, you know, parameters of, of, of icon designing and is different than just illustration in general and maybe some of your other work.

What's the question there? I guess,

laura bee: Is it the, that you sent me a question that I am, it's bringing to mind [00:36:00] where you were, like, how do you balance something between like clarity and creativity?

Matt: Yeah. Right.

laura bee: Um, so for that one, I, I feel like it is, uh, a balancing act,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

laura bee: think. For icons specifically, clarity should come first because they're essentially a communication tool, right?

that's their function. And if, if you have a pretty icon that somebody can't read or interpret, then it's, it's pointless, really. Um, but I think that you don't have to sacrifice creativity in order to have that clarity and comprehension. I think you can have both. and I can give some examples on like how I, how I've done that in other projects.

Um, I designed Dropbox as Icon System a long time ago now. This is [00:37:00] 2019. so it's been a minute they still use it That was one of the ICON projects where they had a custom typeface that they wanted me to design the icon system to work in harmony with. They wanted it to feel seamless in the ui.

And the typeface itself was kind of built out of, all of the circles had like a squish to them. They were a bit squared. Squircles was the technical term. so I. Put that through every single icon, every single curve that was in every icon had this kind of squished, slightly squared, feel to it.

So like a smiley face. The circle was squished. The smile line had that slightly squared off feel, and even the dots for the eyes were the squirl as well. what was great about that was that the overall style influence was like baked into the structure of the icon. So it scaled really well. You could, you know, a [00:38:00] squirl would read at the tiniest of sizes and really big.

So that worked out really well and we didn't have to compromise anything in order to get that into the system. but I'm working on an icon system right now, which is quite different. It's a project that has a very expressive illustration style and, personality and feeling a bit more human, is really important.

It's almost like a bit of a rejection against like typical tech styling. so we've designed this icon set that has a lot of like flourishes and charm and details, a lot of personality. But the problem with that is that it doesn't scale so well to the really small sizes, but we need to keep all of that personality because it's such a big part of the brand.

So the compromise that we've made is to kind of, um, design a break point in the icon system where [00:39:00] anything from 20 pixels and up keeps all of this charm and all of the flourishes and the personality that makes this brand feel. Um. So lovely. And then from anything smaller than that, we've kind of designed a more simple version and maybe we just simplify the flourish or remove it all together.

It's kind of like a case by case basis of how we do it and what doesn't doesn't work, but it works really well. And it, it doesn't feel disjointed at all because obviously you have all of the, the typical styling that goes throughout, like the corner radius, the strokes, et cetera. but it's a great way to kind of make sure that we are achieving both clarity and comprehension while still holding onto the creativity of like, what makes this brand feel so special visually.

Um, so it's not always, you can't always achieve it the same way, and it's like a case by [00:40:00] case basis of. What is working for this brand and what's the most important as to how, how we solve that problem. But it's a balancing act, essentially, of

Matt: Right.

laura bee: making sure that both can exist.

Favorite Projects And Physical Icons

Jory: what's a favorite recent project? Uh, and you can't say, I know you want to say, but you can't say chisel 

laura bee: Um, this is really hard because I, last year I got to design the icon system for Historic England, which is a government body that, um, basically has funding to protect landmarks and historical property and land and, uh, monuments, things like that. So really great.

And it was lovely being thrust [00:41:00] into a totally different subject area because instead of designing like profile and upload and share, I was doing castles and country houses and parks, places of worship. Just so lovely to stretch my legs in a different subject area. For sure.

Jory: Awesome. 

Matt: Sounds fun.

Jory: yeah. Was that, were, were those. Were those UI icons or more like more spot 

laura bee: They were honestly everything. Like they, I know that they would, they talked about like, they will be using them on their website and in their app, but also for like maps, you know, like actually like print printing. We never, we don't really get to do very much. All of our stuff lives on a screen. but yeah, I was, I need to get my hands on one of these maps 'cause I wanna see my little castle guys.

Jory: That was actually my, that was how I fell in love with Icon Design was physical [00:42:00] stuff, because 

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: for a, um, an environmental graphic design firm, and we would 

laura bee: Nice. 

Jory: design and signage 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: and map design. And so that was kind of my first, you know, showing like, oh, okay. There's, you know, seeing the, all the M-U-T-C-D, which is a, oh shoot, manual of uniform. Transportation design or something in the us but all the, the things they have, the specific restrictions they have for the icons that appear on road signs and stuff like that. Um, and the A IGA symbols and all those things, 

laura bee: So cool.

Jory: that was when I was like, oh, I like this. I wanna do more of this. Um, but, but so, so the first time I designed an icon was for a sign, then when I was like, oh, I can do this for a website project that I'm working on, and I was like, I, at the time I was like, oh, pixels, okay.

I'm used to inches, um, or centimeters. I'm sorry. we're not metric.[00:43:00]

laura bee: we're very confusing over here. We do it all.

Jory: So, uh, but Yeah. no, it's fun. That is the, that is the joy of getting to, uh, as a digital designer, seeing something 

laura bee: Yeah. 

Jory: Um.

laura bee: Yeah. My, my like dream project would be to do an icon set for like an airline or a train line. 'cause then obviously you have the digital, but then you'll also be, think of all of the icons inside of a plane for like the light and the air, and you know, how cool would that be?

Jory: my favorite thing is there is a, I think it's on a certain united plane that they have the restroom symbol 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: you know, man and, you know, person with a dress next to each other. The, the 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: and the way they've designed it, the dress is so high in comparison to the figure next to it that I'm like, that the person has super long legs, or they're wearing a crop top, like it is the, [00:44:00] it's a, and they're going, you know, full Paddington 

laura bee: Their legs end their neck.

Jory: Pretty much I have like this, every time I see it, I'm like, oh, I have to take a photo of it, and then I just don't. 

laura bee: Yeah, I need to see that now.

Jory: yeah, it brings me joy and it's a ridiculous, piece of design at the same time. 

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Maybe the designer created that way 'cause they knew they'd get a chuckle.

Jory: I hope so. I hope so. 

laura bee: Yeah. We need a chuckle driven icon now.

Matt: Yes. Yeah. Jerry, can you get on that? We'll, we'll identify a designer to do the chuckle, uh, small batch. 

Jory: Yeah.

Well, yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know I don't have any, I mean, I, we could talk for a long time, but Vic, Vic, Laura. Oh my God. It's the voice.

laura bee: I know

Jory: uh,

laura bee: we have. It's our fault. We are essentially the same person.

Jory: now, you know. No, no, no, no, no, no. Um, Your work is so fantastic. Uh, 

laura bee: you.

Jory: and it's so joyful and I'm so glad we got to work together.

And, um, 

laura bee: Me too.

Jory: you know, if, if, if there isn't an existential crisis and you have an idea for a set that you're like, oh, I really wanna do this, 

laura bee: [00:45:00] Mm-hmm.

Jory: us know.

laura bee: I sure will.

Jory: Yeah. Base it on the, base it on the, the plant behind you. The,

laura bee: Okay.

Jory: yeah. On Monster.

Matt: Is there any, anything in particular that we didn't touch on that you, you would like to, to share? Stuff that you want folks to know about? We, we can do sort of the wrap up and, you know, where can people find you and all that stuff. But is there anything that you, uh, would like to discuss that we didn't get to in the conversation?

Noah Figma Story And Farewell

laura bee: I do have a cute story about Noah.

Jory: Oh, please.

laura bee: Yeah. So, um, me and Noah both got asked to do an icon set for Figma

Jory: Mm-hmm.

laura bee: and it was for the launch of Fig Jam. And so we both were designing like separate sets, like not together. And at the time I hadn't used Figma yet to make icons like a lot of icon designers. You not illustrator really well. And I, and.

Making the move over to Figma felt like such a big thing and quite intimidating. And I, but I thought, you know, I can't make an icon set [00:46:00] for Figma in Illustrator. I have to learn, I have to make it in Figma, right? And at the time, Noel was like using Figma and so I told him, I was like, I really need to do this, but I'm scared and I feel intimidated.

And I'm so used to using Illustrate. I've done it for like over a decade that way. And so he recorded me some loom videos of how to get started and tips and tricks for Figma and Icon Design and Figma. And he is just the cutest pettiest ever and I really appreciate him. And then I've not looked back since.

And I now I use Figma all of the time for all of my icon design, so thanks Noah.

Jory: he, listen, he held my hand through the process as well. Like was, uh, don't wanna say it's, you know, one of the reasons he, he works with us now is that when I was the, I was considering moving to Figma and we got on a call and he kind of, he did the same thing. He showed [00:47:00] me

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: um. And we kind of got chatting. I was like, Hey, you wanna take a stab at making, I think we were making our sharp icons and I, I was overwhelmed and I asked for some help and he's like, I, I'd love to help, but like, I'm gonna have to do en Figma. No. And they were an illustrator at the time. I

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Jory: oh, okay. And then he showed me and then like, I was like, okay, we'll make the switch. And so yeah, he's, I think he has championed it and um, uh, ushered a lot of us,

laura bee: So basically

Jory: along. Yeah,

laura bee: Figma owe Noah, a big fat check.

Jory: They do. I think they did pay him some for, 'cause he also did his, chunk, they helped sponsor chunk his chunk icon set,

laura bee: Nice.

Jory: um, which I saw actually recently is being used by an airline for some things, which

laura bee: Cool.

Jory: he's got

laura bee: Yes.

Jory: bucket list.

laura bee: Lovely.

Jory: yeah.

Matt: You guys are also quietly famous. It's like every, we were seeing icons [00:48:00] constantly if people just knew the faces and the people behind these icon sets, their minds would be blown. It's just something that we take for granted for so much. It's, uh, that always kind of blows my mind.

laura bee: Yeah, they're icons are everywhere, aren't they?

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Jory: Yep.

Matt: I always tell people, you know, it, it's, uh, it's funny, j maybe I need to like create a, like templatized statement that fa awesome folks can say, when someone asks you what do you do for work? What kind of company do you work for? And I'm always like, oh boy, how do I explain this? You know, you're saying you're talking to somebody at the doctor's office.

Like, you know those little pictures you see on websites? You know, I always tell people, if you've been online today, you've seen fun, awesome icons. I can almost guarantee it, you know,

Jory: Yeah.

laura bee: Mm-hmm.

Matt: so it, it, it's just wild to think that so many eyeballs have like looked at these tiny little pictures that are everywhere.

So you guys are like the most [00:49:00] famous artists in the world, basically.

Jory: Some people think it's really cool and then other people are like,

laura bee: What?

Jory: That what?

laura bee: Yeah,

Jory: that's a

Matt: wha

laura bee: it's the hardest job to explain and it shouldn't be.

Jory: Yeah, I do like occasionally. I mean, it happens more than occasionally when someone asks me and I can say like, well what's, what's your web? You know, you have a company, what's your website? And it's so fun when I can pull up their website and be like, you're using our stuff right now. That's like a

laura bee: Nice.

Jory: helps

laura bee: What a flex.

Jory: yeah.

Matt: yeah.

Jory: but then, you know, and then I'm also just sitting in the dentist chair being like, you know, those little drawings in the thing? They're like, oh, cute. Great.

laura bee: Yeah.

Jory: and there's, you can make money on that. I'm like. Yeah.

laura bee: Yeah. People think that they just magically appear.

Jory: Yep.

Matt: right? Yeah.

Jory: So

Matt: Laura Behill, thank you so much. What a [00:50:00] lovely conversation and, uh, chisel what a fantastic icon set you've created. So thank you so much for your time to through creativity and the design process and, uh, creating this icon set. If folks are curious to learn more about you, uh, where should they go to to learn more about Laura?

laura bee: You can find me at Laura b on most things, but he's the catch, right. It's Laura B with an extra R in the middle, so it's Laura RB with two E's, because I can't get Laura b anywhere for anything. It's the most frustrating

Jory: Laura

Matt: It was funny when I was reading up on

laura bee: Laraby.

Matt: Yeah, I, I, I, I bumped into that myself. I was like, wait a minute. I feel like I've hit a dead end here. This is not the person. Uh, so

laura bee: Yeah.

Matt: Laura,

laura bee: I think,

Matt: Yeah,

laura bee: think the person who has laura b.com is actually a designer [00:51:00] too,

Matt: think you're

laura bee: so Yeah, I, I've had people say like, what?

Jory: Oh, they do. I bet they've gotten some good business off of your name.

Matt: Yeah,

laura bee: Maybe it's the other way around. Maybe I owe them all of my success.

Matt: I think you're, you're the famous one.

Jory: Yep.

Matt: thank you so much Laura. This was a

laura bee: Thank you.

Matt: and, uh, we're so, uh, so grateful that you could, um, partner with us to make the chisel set. It's really, really lovely, so thank you.

laura bee: A dream. It was a dream after a brief existential crisis, so thank you. Sometimes you need an occasional existential crisis to propel you into a new frontier.

Jory: There you

Matt: That's right.

Jory: made it

Matt: That's

laura bee: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Matt: All right, well, uh, thanks everybody. And do, do, do, do, do, do. I guess we're done with the podcast. I will press stop.

Jory: Bristo.

laura bee: So that was so fun and lovely.

Thanks again to Laura Bow Hill for joining us for another delightful conversation about Icon Design and giving us a peek behind the process of designing the chisel set. [00:52:00] If this episode helped you think differently about icons, illustration, creativity, or I don't know, the weird magic of design constraints, maybe share it with a designer friend.

Or somebody who loves geeking out about design craft in general. So thanks for listening to podcast. Awesome. This podcast was produced and edited by yours truly, Matt Johnson. The podcast awesome theme song was composed by Ronnie Martin. The music interstitials were composed by Zach Mam And we got some extra video editing help from Mr.

Isaac Chase.

Now you know what to do. Go make something awesome.