[00:00:00] When you come in for an interview, you are interviewing them and they smell it. The only wrong thing to say is in an interview when they ask you. Do you have any questions for us? No, I don't have any questions.

Welcome to podcast. Awesome. Where we chat about icons, design tech, business, and nerdery with members of the font. Awesome team. I'm your host Matt Johnson, and today I'm chatting with FA awesome founder Dave Gandy about why hiring is a two-way street. In this episode, you'll learn how to spot red flags in the hiring process.

What a healthy company actually looks like and how to interview a company as much as they're interviewing you. All right. Let's get into it with Dave. This is a topic that is an ongoing conversation related to hiring. We've talked a lot about being a culture first company in terms of finding the right cultural fit in the folks that we're considering as candidates, that that's like a very, very much a top tier.

Consideration, but this is a two way street. Like the person looking for work also ought to be in the mindset of, is this company the right fit For me, it's, uh, I guess we could just start there. So when you say we, we talk about hiring, being a two way street, is that essentially what you mean? What can, what can you say about that?

Yeah, I think, um, I think it's really interesting how bad. Most companies are at hiring, um, how many really dumb things they do all in that, that hiring process that end up, uh, backfiring on them pretty seriously. Um. The one that's most obvious to me is, so a lot of times, especially once HR gets involved in any [00:02:00] business that has HR involved in hiring deserves it, right?

Because as soon as that happens, uh, there are a few HR departments that are awesome with this, but the vast majority of them, uh, exist. You should know what HR is for first. HR is to protect the company from legal liability. They're not to do good, they're not to help you. Uh, they're there to help the company, but they're not actually there to help you.

And that's one of the first things you kind of gotta know. So whenever they get involved in the hiring process, their primary goal is not to find the best people for the job unless they're really good and most of them are not. You'll sometimes even get like intelligence assessment assessments where you'll have to go online and take a test or, uh, now they've got these really weird AI screening things that I'm pretty convinced don't actually tell them anything except, uh, flip a coin to tell 'em yes or no, that they're not.

They're really, really weird and ineffective and also dehumanizing. This is great. This is great for people looking for a job because it can tell you really quickly, does this company understand people? Does it care about them, and does it know how to do its job very well? Because you're not gonna have a good time in your job if the company doesn't know how to do its job.

And its job is to hire adults and then treat them that way. Hire good people to do the work and then let them do it. Um, if you're finding weird things in the hiring process, there's a good chance this is gonna be throughout whatever that that company is doing. Uh, a common thing you'll see is, um, well, what they think their job is to do, we need to weed out the worst candidates.

Right. And that's, that's true, right? When you have so many candidates. Yeah. You've gotta look through, um, the last open hiring we ran, we had, uh. It's about 700 candidates. We did not use any external software to manage it. It was all emails and I read every single one of them. Mm-hmm. I worked all the interactions, uh, because hiring's important and it [00:04:00] should not be about spending less time on hiring.

It should be about the best job to find the very best people. Um mm-hmm. And that took a lot of time. Right. That took a lot of manual. It, it was, parts of it are mind numbing. And then. And look who we hired. Oh my goodness. Lindsay is like, Lindsay stole the job from everybody else. Right? There were some other great candidates for this.

We had great options. And usually you're like, oh, well we've got a choice between several good people, uh, you know, oh, great. How, how good for us. But at in, in this case, we did, except for she came in and she stole that job. She took it from everybody else because she knocked it so thoroughly outta the park.

It was amazing. Yeah. Um, but if we had come in with a really weird, like, assessment of some kind. I mean, we could, we could, if we wanted to give everybody the six types of working genius, uh, except we should know that after having a conversation with them, you can suss that out if you know what you're looking for.

Um, so we don't need a test to do that. And instead we can actually have a conversation, find out who people are and, you know, screen in sort of a different way. Um, but if you get, if you make it into a sit down interview and somebody's asking you some really like weird questions, this is your great sign.

This is not gonna be a place you wanna be. Right. Right. Uh, as much as you might need it, even if you get it, you might be really dissatisfied in the end. Right, right. I, I've, I have been fired from a job before I got fired, uh, from the first job I was ever managing, uh, because I would not help my boss, uh, outsource my team.

Uh, and I wasn't just morally opposed to being a part of that process. I was also opposed from the business perspective. I knew it wasn't gonna work. I knew how they were going about it wasn't gonna work because I had done it before. I'd been at a company, the previous company I was at did it before and it didn't work either doing the exact same thing and then it mm-hmm.

Didn't work after they fired me either. What do you know? And then they had a hard time replacing me. Uh, the next two people quit in less than six months because, you know, when you give somebody an impossible job and then don't let them actually do it, it turns out it's really hard to do. It's hard to find somebody who'll even be there.

Um, so I've been in the spot of, uh, looking for a job and, [00:06:00] and getting a little desperate about it too, at times. Like, that's really, really hard space to be. And it's easy to let the amygdala takeover and you go into reptile brain mode and you stop thinking and remembering how you're different, how you, how you are unique and playing just to that, right?

And so strategy wise, you've got some different ways you can even look for a job. Number one is you've gotta know what you're looking for and then you need a good strategy, right? Number one, number two, number one, what are you looking for? And it needs to be more than. Will pay me money and hire me. Right?

Right. Uh, because there's turns out there's actually a lot of jobs you can go and do. Right. What you're really looking for is you're looking for, if you're smart, I mean, it's, it's sort of like dating, right? If that's, if that's your only requirement for, for someone you're dating, is, uh, will they have me? I tell you what that is.

It is not a terribly, uh, attractive, uh, place to be on, on the other side. And, uh, has no standards, has never made anybody crazy about somebody else. That's for sure. Yeah. And hiring is really, really similar. So even if you are desperate, right? Number one, you don't ever wanna let that show, you don't ever wanna let that show, and you also don't wanna start being stupid because of that.

What should you be looking for, right? So what you should be looking for. Is a place that is looking to hire adults and then will treat you that way. You're looking for a place that is organizationally healthy and there are not many of them, right? There are not many of them. Um, but if you can look for this and you can find this, you're gonna be a whole lot happier for a long time.

I just saw that the next Monday, one of our employees is having his 10 year anniversary at Fun. Awesome. As an employee, that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Very cool. This is possible if you can find those rare companies, so keep in mind you're not just looking for a paycheck. You are worth something and you are valuable and you gotta know who you are and [00:08:00] don't ever compromise right on the other side, right?

Like have, there's a level of understanding of who you are. That's really important. That you are important, that this is an important process, uh, and it's important to find a good company. The way that we do hiring because we think it's important is you can call it culture, but it's really just prioritizing something other than capability.

If you hire only for capability, only for brain power, you end up with a soulless organization. That doesn't really care about more than anything other than how smart somebody is, how capable they are. And then what happens is this runs throughout the organization and you prioritize that. So as long as you're more capable, you can run over everybody else around you.

You can just run right over 'em. And everybody's like, well, they're really effective, so it's okay. And this leads to, it turns out some pretty bad places in the workplace. There's a lot of ways this goes wrong. If you're allowed to take advantage of others simply because you are more capable, that's a bad place to be.

So we have always hired first for, we refer to it as character. My loose definition, you can call it integrity. Basically, it's when who you think you are, who you actually are, who you say you are, and who you wanna be, all become the same thing. When that happens, I would call that a person of character, right?

A person who, uh, who tells the truth, right? A person who is trustworthy, and the number one thing you are looking to build on a team is trust. You get more done. You do not get more done. When you have more capability, you get more done when you have high trust, and this is the most important thing, right?

So you're, you're trying to suss out is this an organization that values trust? And I'll teach you how to flip the script you think. They are interviewing you wrong. When you come in for an interview, you are interviewing them and they smell it. Everyone smells it.

There's a psych psychological thing when the person on the other side of the table realizes that you are someone that has [00:10:00] options or is at least someone who is not gonna put up with nonsense. Right When you, when, when you find that person and they come in with their own questions, they know what they're looking for.

The only wrong thing to say is in an interview, when they ask you, do you have any questions for us? No, I don't have any questions. That's, that is the wrong question. That is the like, oh, you have not even thought about this enough, and you have such low standards. You are so desperate. You don't even care on the other side.

Anything about us. Absolutely. Have you ever worked anywhere? Have there ever been problems? Have you, do you have questions? Right? So, number one, you've gotta prep a, a, a, really, really the answer, the correct answer to. Do you have any question is, oh, so many. I will try not to take all the time, right? Yeah. I have so many questions and then you have to actually fill it, right?

But your job to suss out there, is this an organization. That has trust built in at the core. Questions like, tell me a time that you had conflict with a teammate and how you resolved it on your team. It's the same question they're gonna ask you if they're smart, that question you have any questions for us?

That's where you get to turn this on. As a matter of fact, don't even wait for this. Don't even wait for this. From the very get go, you're teasing out from them things about the role, things about the team, things about them. And if you weren't talking to somebody on the team, if this is a pre whatever interview, you might already be in the wrong place.

If you're talking to somebody that knows nothing about the team, knows nothing about the work, and this is a HR screening thing, you're either at the wrong company or at a big company. And it's not necessarily bad that it's a big company, but just know they're I, I don't know of many. Great teams at large companies, they certainly exist, but it's, it's hard to find.

Sure. Yeah. Here locally in Seattle, you know, there's obviously, there's a lot of tech and I've talked to a lot of peers and folks in, uh, tech and in the creative space, and they work for the Amazons and the Googles and stuff like that. And I'll, I'll say, oh, you know, geez, how is it like working there? And you get wa, you know, huge.

Differences of, [00:12:00] of opinion. It really does depend on the team that you, that you work on for somebody have to have a recognition of this kinds of things that you're talking about. Like if the interview is set up this way. If you are speaking with someone who isn't even a part of the team, you know, these may be warning signs, and at the same time, you know, especially when it comes to a larger organization, you'd have to suss it out.

But it's possible that their processes are just sort of boilerplate. It's like an indication that that is an aspect of the company that is not great, not ideal, but you may have a pretty healthy team and you can work within the bounds of. Some things that are not ideal. I, what, what do you think about that?

Yeah, like, yeah. I, I think, I think that's very true, right? Just because you have a, uh, a screening interview with HR is not necessarily a giant warning flag, right? And you've gotta know what they're looking for, what their motivation is, right? So their motivation at that point is they need to be a low pass filter.

Okay. They need to be a, we need to make sure that there's no bad people that get in, otherwise we're gonna be embarrassed and we're gonna get in trouble for wasting the time of whoever's next up. And so their job is a low pass filter. Well, they've got a problem. They don't know they've got a problem, but they've got a problem because every Lowpass filter in hiring meant to keep out.

The people at the bottom also works as a high pass filter. It keeps out the people at the top, because if you are somebody who really knows this and is gonna be really, really spectacularly good for this job, maybe up against the bounds of like, you're too good for this job, if that's the case, you walk into a room and somebody's asking you questions all the way down here.

You're like, oh, I'm, I must be in the wrong place. If you're asking me this stuff, if you haven't already figured out what I can do and how I, how good I am at this, I'm, I'm clearly, I'm clearly in the wrong place here. And it's amazing how often that happens because most companies think they're interviewing you and they absolutely are, but some of them aren't even [00:14:00] smart enough.

To realize that you're interviewing them, right? And they've gotta make sure that they're also not filtering out the great folks. If it's hr, that's not necessarily a problem. And there, there's some level of, if it's a large company, you kind of gotta suffer through some, some nonsense. But keep in mind, whatever nonsense you discover in a hiring process is going to be nonsense that runs rough shot all throughout that company, all throughout, right?

Um, there's a lot you can do to sort of suss out if they're thoughtful with their questions. That's a really good sign. If they've spent some time thinking about what are we really looking for here beyond just X number of years of writing, I don't know, dot net, whatever, which is like the dumbest and lowest of things because you can suss that out in five minutes.

Anyone who is a technical expert at something and reasonably can understand others. Those don't always go together, but it's very, very easy to suss out in less than five minutes exactly what someone's capability level is with something that, uh, you're also an expert at. So if I'm an expert in something, I can, in less than five minutes, suss out exactly how capable the other person is.

Our interviews also, we interview people, we start relationships, we build those, and it takes nine months, typically before we hire anybody at the on on at the lowest end, and the interview the day of, if we do one massive interview, it's gonna be 12 hours. Eight hours, lots of breaks in between, but like we already knew in five minutes, we knew in before you came in if your, if your capability was there.

But are you the kind of person that we, we want to be excited in the morning to get up and be around. That's what we're looking for. And the thing is. You can be the other. You can be the opposite on the other end. Flip the script. Be looking for this. When you're looking for a job, how do you look for those sorts of things in the company?

So step one is spend some time being thoughtful about what you're really looking for. And I don't, again, [00:16:00] it's not just pay, it's not just numbers, right? It's what do you, what would an amazing team be like to be on. Then you kind of have to ask yourself the question, am I somebody that could be on that kind of a team?

Am I somebody that is trustworthy and that's who we're talking to here? Anyway, this conversation is not for the people who are just out there to get the highest dollar amount. The mercenary developers and the mercenary coders, the mercenary employees. This is not, this is not what this is for. There's, there's a place for that, but it's not at our company.

We want people who are more than just cash. As a matter of fact, one of the things we try to suss out. Uh, a lot of times is where has somebody given up money for something they considered to be more important? You wanna find a really fascinating story and tells you everything about somebody and you're not always gonna find it.

And that's okay. This isn't a, if we don't find it, it's a failure. Right. But it's something we're always kind of like hunting around to find. Right. And I, I can give you, uh, stories from multiple employees that when we discovered this, this was a huge, this was a huge deal. Right. What's, what's a choice you've made in life where you took less money, or you spent money, or you did whatever because there was something else that you thought was more important.

Um, that tells you a lot. And so it turns out companies are the same way. Companies are the same way. What do they spend money on that they don't have to? Right. Little questions, strangely enough, the questions around healthcare. Sure. What's your healthcare plan can tell you. A surprising amount. Little things like that can tell you a surprising amount.

You know, what, what's their philosophy around benefits, right? How, how did you put this package together? What made you, how did you guys decide this kind of stuff? And granted, you're not gonna be able to interview somebody on a team or even an individual manager to figure some of this out, and probably can't even figure that out with hr.

Some questions you wanna know answers to, you're not gonna be able to find out. Now, if it's our company, you'll be able to find out, 'cause you'll talk to me at some point. Uh, and again, that's, that's the nature of small companies. They can be some of the worst places you could possibly be. Right? A, a great example of a sad little king of a sad little hill.

People [00:18:00] who really love low grade bullying or even high grade bullying of others, that's far too common in small companies. And the opposite's true too, right? And you find great places where you want to be for a decade. You know, when the average time in tech is 18 months and you wanna stay for 10 years, and you're the kind of person that constantly moves around, right?

Where you're, you're really moving around every 18 months and you decide some, whether it's worth sticking for 10 years. Boy, that's kind of a neat thing to find. And, and they exist out there. Um, yeah. So again, step one is. Know what you're looking for. Think about that. Know who you are, how you can fit. Then the strategy side comes in, spray and pray.

I can tell you from reading 700 resumes, the ones I deleted the fastest were the ones that spent the least amount of time thinking about the application that were like, I'm going to put out, you know, what The best, the best strategy for me to get a job is to put out a thousand resumes. Right? That is, that is a strategy that makes perfect logical sense that this would work.

It's wrong. Because all truth turns out all truth is logical, but not all perfect logical statements make truth. It doesn't work that way, right? So number one, in this strategy, instead of spray and pray. Pick three to five companies. The first part, which is know what you're looking for. A part of that is kind of know who you are.

You should take the StrengthsFinder test. If you haven't done this before, you should learn about how you work best in a team. You should do your own leadership research. Read everything by Patrick Lencioni. We'll just say that's the easiest shortcut to all this stuff. There's lots of other great stuff out there.

There's good to, great. There's all kinds of domain specific stuff, right? There's, what was it, outcomes over output. Was it a recent one was like super short and amazing. Right? Right. There's there's lots of them. Yeah. They're constantly out there. But shortcut to understanding organizational health. Which means you want to be around the people you work with.

That's the core of that. Oh, I want be around these people. The Advantage five dysfunctions of a Team working genius. Absolutely. Read that. I have spent, uh, I was one of the original test populations when they were coming up with the StrengthsFinder test back 25 [00:20:00] years ago. I happened to be in la. We were one of the first groups they were giving this test to.

I know Myers-Briggs pretty well inside and out, and I've been doing that for ages. But none of those are quite as immediately impactful and practical as six types of working genius. So if you haven't done it, number one, you can go back and we've got a podcast from ages ago on working Genius. We've got several.

I think you want a little intro into it, but you need to know who you are first, know who you are, know what you're looking for as a part of step one, step two. Now turn that into the strategy. The strategy is if you know who you are, you know what you're looking for. Now go and find three to five companies that are going to embody that.

Go and find three to five companies that you're gonna fit perfectly into.

Here's the deal too, if you're early in your career, my biggest piece of advice, uh, and a lot of people talk about being T-shaped, right? And that's where you, on the top level, you know a little bit about a lot of things. Then that's the, that's the crossbar and then the bottom is, you know, one thing very deeply.

Okay. Right. It's good advice, but I think it's the starting point. I think what you actually want to be is you want to be double T-shaped. You wanna, again, know a lot about a lot of things and then you wanna know a lot about two things. And may maybe one is deep, like quite a bit deeper than know that's okay.

But one, uh, but these two things, in some ways, the more different they are, the better. Can you gimme examples of that? Yeah, I'll use me. So in my StrengthsFinder test from 25 years ago when I'm taking, this helped me think about what makes me different, how am I unique? And I am not the best developer in the world.

Anybody on our team who is can tell you that I'm not the best designer on in the world. Again, anyone on our team can tell you this, but the place that I am unique is my ability to be both left brain and right brain at the same time. To be design and engineering at the same time. I can do the combination of those two things extremely well.

[00:22:00] That's what makes me different. It's art and technology, same time. That's kind of what engineering is in the middle. You've gotta push, pull, design, ux, ui, how does it work? How's this gonna scale? Like all of these little bits, what 10,000 things do you have to hold in your head at the same time and balance them?

Right? That's what I can do. That's me. Um, can you give examples of how does that show up for fun? Awesome. And then maybe. Beyond that, are there? Oh, well, I mean are there examples of companies that you think do that, that have that balance really well? Oh, let's take Jory. Jo's a great example. Jory, because he thought it was interesting in his twenties.

Spent a lot of time making icons 'cause he thought it was fun and he thought it was interesting. And he's also had his own startup before, and he's run that. He's got a good amount of expertise about both of those things. He's an outstanding. Designer, he's got the chops four acting and improv, right?

There's a bunch of very different things. These are all things that in his twenties, he knew were awesome and he loved them, but he probably had no idea they could turn into a career because the jobs that are possible are more than you ever think when you're in your early twenties than you're ever aware of, and you don't even know that you can go and make up jobs.

You can go and make 'em up. You can just like make a third of the world's icons that are seen in a given day. You can just do that. Those things are all really kind of different except for the design and icons. Icon is more just kind of like Icon Design is more a specific branch of it, but also very esoteric.

Who would think that would ever turn out valuable and then what did it do turned out to be valuable? Right? Within a week of hiring Jory, I had handed over all icon designed to him. Because he was so obviously better than me at, on, on the visual side especially and at like on the rest of it. 'cause there's so many things that go into it, right?

So much better. I never ever looked back from that because jewelry was that good. But if you, let's say you have a i'll, I'll take something, right? If in your twenties or whatever crypto was super [00:24:00] interesting to you and you're also a designer, well, then clearly you should find the five best companies in that overlapping space, right?

You're gonna be looking at, obviously, first Coinbase. As a matter of fact, that may be the only place you want to go and work. And if it is, that's okay. So find where you want to be. Pick three to five companies you want to go after and then be smart about how you go and look.

Number one, don't ever go in through the front door for a job. Don't ever go in through the front door. Don't ever go through the standard hiring process. You are always looking for the side door or the back door, and this is how you get around. Most of the nonsense in HR is you cut 'em out. You don't ever go through the process that they want you to, you cut around it, right?

And one of the ways you can do this is number one, build relationships with people from that company in that field. Go and find 'em. Follow 'em. Ideally, you've already been following them for a few years. By the time you know you need to find a job, you already have the people in the space. You know what you're looking for.

You develop those relationships, build those relationships ahead of time if you can. But you build side conversations, whether it's on Twitter, whether it's on, you know, blue sky, wherever. Um, so here's the other thing. And this is one that's hard for people. There's a lot of things when you're looking for a job that hits the pride, right?

Which I think is, is not surprising. I've, I've done it myself. I've been fired from a job myself, and there's a lot of it that hits the pride. But number one, ask people for what you need. Don't be afraid to ask, right? Don't be afraid to ask for that coffee. Don't be afraid to ask for, Hey, can you review this, my resume?

Right? I know that, you know, he give him a practical thing they can do in three minutes and type back. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. People, this is the thing. We'd like to believe that in this day and age, because social media tells us, we like to believe that our neighbors are enemy, but they're not. People are really pretty great.

They really come through. For somebody who didn't come from Silicon Valley, the time that we spent there with Y Commander, it was shocking the [00:26:00] things that people would, would do to help out. Right? Right. And so, so don't be afraid to ask. And also don't be afraid to get a rejection. Don't be afraid to never hear back or don't put too much weight on that email you sent asking for somebody to review a resume.

But think about first developing those if you're not looking for a job right now. Oh goodness. This is the best time to do job prep for your next one. Mm-hmm. Right? That's right. When you have a job right now, this is the best time to be doing prep. This is the best time to be building those relationships, right?

And not so much that you're distracted from, you know, life and living it or whatever, but like actually maybe, maybe there is some life to be lived at. The community of professionals around you that are, you know, you might find are kind of neat. Maybe they're trustworthy people and they're people you want to be around and well, maybe you already found your next one.

Ideally, in some ways, you kind of already wanna have some ideas at any point where you'd like to go next if something happened where you are, right? Because reality happens to every business at some point. Reality happens to all businesses and you wanna be ready for that. Where do you, where would you go next?

So constantly be building these relationships. I think that's one of the biggest pieces of advice for people when they're not looking right, because you do most of the prep, most of your job prep for your next job when you're looking is done before you ever leave the company. Forcibly or voluntarily, either one.

You do that prep work beforehand. There's a bit about going to the company side. There's a question that sort of sticks out is how can a company do a better job at communicating what their values are to a potential hire Boy, I mean, what I'd say is the interview. We'll do it automatically. I am going to at some point, bring up why our company exists, why it came about, what the values are right here, what we're trying to do, what teams are working on the clear delineated like goal that they all have, that they need to be working on right now.

We're gonna talk about all of those in an interview. Those things will come out. I think it's good to think about making sure they're in there, always make sure they're in there, but they're gonna come out [00:28:00] naturally and if you don't share the character of your company, you may not have any. That's possible.

Some companies are just about cold, hard cash and there's not much more going on. And keep in mind at some point that is the trade here, right? A professional relationship is one where you give effort and they give you money. That's the nature of that relationship. And at some point it, it can be more than that, but it's not gonna ever be less than that.

On the company side, I would say, well, number one, you have to know. What your company is, and if you give me a mission state that says something about we exist to provide the best customer service for the least amount of effort, or you give me something that any company could have, I'd say you probably don't actually know who you are as a company to begin with.

Yeah, right, right. We're a company. We exist for our employees to be fulfilled in life and work. That's what we do. Travis and I started this company so that we got to work with the best humans we've ever known who also happened to be great professionally. We wanted to wake up and be around awesome people.

Yeah. Let's see if we can make money doing it too. But that's, that's why we really, really existed. That's why we really came about, what I, what I tell people is businesses do not need to be unique at all. As a matter of fact, you're gonna have an easier time starting a business if it's something that everyone is very familiar with, but you just need to do one thing different than every other business.

Mm-hmm. You need to have one thing that's different. Right. And it can be that the one thing that's different that you do is that you do a good job. Huh. Right. That can be it. You've gotta have everything else too. Right? You've gotta make sure that, you know, if you're a contractor, there are lots of contractors that go bankrupt 'cause they do too good of a job, and by that, I'm, I'm, it's actually not a good job.

Right? What they're doing is they're not monitoring their costs, how much is going out the door in labor? They're not keeping an eye on things well enough, and so they, you know, they lose money doing that. You've gotta have the base level. Whatever that industry requires. But all you gotta do is do one thing different and someone's originality is enough to be different, right?

But you just gotta do one thing different than everybody else to set yourself apart. And I think too, there's it, you can get a sense for the personality of the company to when you suss out a little bit how they talk about these things. I'm running the risk of like, you know, [00:30:00] patting, patting us on the back as a company.

But one of the reframes that we hear over and over again is. Icons aren't gonna change the world. Like e everybody. If you're building a website, everybody needs these. Yeah. Uh, we know it's not gonna change the world. We have a sense of humor about it. And maybe, you know, maybe for the insurance company it's the attitude of like, look.

Nobody wants to deal with this. It's a fact of life and we're gonna guarantee we're gonna give you the best experience of getting your insurance. You know, whatever it is, you only gotta do the one thing different, only the one thing different.

Thanks again, Dave, for joining me for this conversation on hiring trust and finding a company that's actually worth your time. If you're job hunting, building a team, or just trying to get better at spotting healthy workplaces, maybe you should send this episode on to a friend or teammate who needs to hear it.

Podcast Awesome. Was produced and edited by yours, truly, Matt Johnson. The podcast awesome theme song, was composed by Ronnie Martin. The music interstitials were composed by Zach Mom, and video editing was done by Isaac Chase. So you know what to do next. Go make something awesome.