[00:00:00] We've kind of reached the maximum that we're going to out of our current set of tools and processes, and there's a chance to, like, bust through and see a different sort of creativity, use for icons, a need for them. So I think that's where I'm, I think there's an opportunity to be inspired by something completely out of the box at this point.

Welcome to Podcast Awesome, where we chat about icons, design, tech, business, and nerdery with members of the Font Awesome team. I'm your host, Matt Johnson. And today we've got Josh Williams back in part two of this series, and this one goes a little bit deeper. We get into what it actually means to design as a generalist, why Josh thinks software should maybe have a final season, and what Gowalla and Path can teach us about the pressure that turns good products into [00:01:00] everything apps.

We also get into AI, and not, not like the think piece version of it, but just what it's actually like to use these tools and what it changes about taste, discernment, and knowing when to stop. And Josh closes with his advice for anyone just getting into icon design today, which is genuinely worth hearing.

So without further ado, here's Josh Williams. I love seeing designers when they really show an interest in getting physical stuff out there in the world, like Dan from Simplebits- Right ... he's always creating stuff just for the joy of it. I was talking to Don Clark from Invisible Creature about a year ago, and they're always putting out limited swag and just cool stuff and, and then he also is in charge of, like, the branding of a real high-end restaurant here in Seattle.

It's just really fun to watch folks that are, like, in the digital space- Right ... and they love, even if there's not a market for it or it's financially viable or whatever, folks that are just like, "I love [00:02:00] to see something come to fruition in the physical world," you know? It's a really cool watch. Well, I think it was

That, that is ... I think one of the hard things about designing digitally is, is just losing the artifacts, and even for some of us who, you know, you try to maintain them or save files or whatever, it is so temporary, and to go back and find old things that you worked on can be, like, really, really difficult.

And so again, having something physical or tangible feels like, yeah, I, I made this, or here's an example of this thing. I mean, this sounds like ... Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to it. Sure. My father, before he passed, he ran an architectural, like, a landscape architectural and environmental graphic- Mm-hmm

design firm, which I worked at for a number of years. One of the things I did, and one of the reasons I kind of got even more into icon design, was signage. Mm-hmm. So we'd design signage for places and way finding stuff, and it's ... Like, he's no longer with us, but his legacy in Vermont is all over the place.

Anywhere you drive in Vermont, you will see [00:03:00] signs that he designed. That's awesome. Like, my, the town I live in has signs, and Burlington, like, you know. So it's kind of this ... Yeah, it's a little monument. I'm sure that's true for a lot of designers who have the real world- Right ... be it your architecture or whatever, but it's- Yeah, and I, I think that-

you know, it's kind of cool ... I don't know. In some ways, I do. I think that back to- Some of the excitement of our current environment, the tools are such that your ability to, whether it's 3D printers or just to make things and tinker and to put something into production- Yeah ... is pretty high right now. And I think that's an exciting time.

Uh, I think it'll be interesting. I'm curious, like, um, for, uh, these Mosaic icons, will people use them? How will people use them? What sort of products do they get incorporated into? And I, I don't know. Like, I think that's, you know, you take something- Yeah ... like, uh, clearly lots of people use Font [00:04:00] Awesome, but then how does that get slurped into and incorporated into other things and remixed?

We'll see. I mean, I just like to think, the reason we're doing these is I like to think that they are kind of like typefaces that, you know, you start a project and you- Right ... try to pick the right typeface for the project. And that is if we can provide icons that kind of give a look and feel that align with a brand or is a little unique.

There was a, a great example of, oh, shoot, I'm gonna forget the name. I think Scott Riley maybe. He has a thing called Mindful Design, which I saw going around, and it's just this very playful, round, black and white, bubbly website about some design practices, and he's using our slab icon set from our Pro+ packs, which is this icon set that has, like, a little bit of a depth to it and feels like it's kind of almost a button in and of itself.

And that's one of those things where, like, we had no idea how they were gonna be used. Right. And in this case, it's perfect for this website. And I'm like, "Oh, this," you know, if it just worked for that- Right, [00:05:00] exactly ... it's worth it. That's right. Yeah, so yeah. And we're doing it 'cause it's fun and 'cause we get to work with cool people.

One of the questions we had here was, like, you've been in the design world for, for a while now. You know, you're, you're an old veteran and, like ... Not old, Josh No, that's okay ... just a veteran That's okay. But, I mean, you've helped companies with brand stuff, UI, like you do icons. It's a lot of different stuff.

Do you see yourself as specializing in one in particular, or do you see that on a continuum, or how do you think about that? Yeah, it's ... I definitely feel like it's become a bit of a continuum and, in that, like I said, there's always things that I kind of always, like, migrate back toward. I love brand design.

There's a certain palette of colors. There's things that are always kind of central to the types of design I like to see in the world. How that manifests itself, whether it's a [00:06:00] digital product or restaurant signage or maybe it's a new app, I feel like that's the part, the curiosity that's always changing of, like, how do you take, again, the aesthetic that is interesting or you find creatively inspiring and apply it to a new venue or category of things.

So that's the part that always kind of varies, and sometimes that comes back around into maybe it'll be a logo today, maybe it'll be icons tomorrow, maybe it'll be an app or whatever. Sometimes I look at designers that are, like, just purely, like, brand people and, like, you look at the library of, say, logos that they've done and you can get jealous and be like, "Oh, man, like, look at all those logos.

They're all just amazing and great, and wouldn't I just love to do logos all day long?" And yeah, maybe so, and I guess I don't have the attention span for that. There's always, like, something I'm like, oh, yeah, now that I did the logo, like, you know, we- I gotta to go do a bunch of other stuff. And so I like that sort of, again, a little more of, [00:07:00] like, a stream of consciousness and, um, uh- Mm-hmm

that takes you from one thing to the next to the next. And then one of the other things that I think is unique to a lot of the projects that I've worked on is, like, the nature of, like, the groups of people that I've gotten to work with and to see them come together, and I think that's one of the most interesting things.

Like, how can you take this designer and this engineer, or these two designers, this illustrator and this designer, and, and bring them together and have them do something that otherwise wouldn't have been done before. And this is something that I feel like is really interesting in the digital space that I would love to see more of, and I

This is ... If you look at kinda like a venture capital- Tech world where there's this idea of like, "I'm gonna build a thing, and this thing has to scale infinitely." And [00:08:00] because it has to scale infinitely in order to return capital to, you know, the, all the investors, it, it puts you into this realm of, again, kind of creating these moonshot type of projects where you eliminate all the...

You try to eliminate as many risks as possible and give this thing as much of a chance to exist into perpetuity a- and make a bunch of money. And again, it's an overgeneralization, but this is how when you think about like, again, the framing of a company like Microsoft or Facebook or, or any of these things, like, "Here's this big idea, and let's...

And we want it to work forever." And there's something interesting about that. On the flip side, there's something interesting to say like, okay, if you look at a band making music or a TV show that exists for a limited number of seasons or a movie, you have all these, like, forms of, like, art and creativity that explicitly have, like, a beginning, middle, and end.

And they, they existed for a reason, and then they're gone, and they're ki- And, and even some restaurants are like this. It's like you have a restaurant that [00:09:00] it's got a 10-year lease on it, and in 10 years, the landlord's gonna jack it, so we know, like, hey, this restaurant is a moment in time when these people come together, and they're gonna do a thing, and it's gonna be beautiful, and then it's gone.

And, and again, I'm watching Widow's Bay on Apple TV right now, a crazy what if... I heard someone say Parks and Rec was written by Stephen King, and it is. Like, I, I don't know where it's going, but it's like, it's a freaky, horrific television show that is gonna exist, and then it's gonna be gone and we'll remember it.

And I wonder what if we treated, like, software design, digital design, digital creation more like- Mm-hmm ... those things. And, like, what's the... Who's the super band? How do you get Laura and Keegan and Tim Van Damme or whoever, put them in the room, and like, we're gonna build a thing, and it's gonna have a point, and it's gonna exist, and people will use it or enjoy it for a period of time, um, and then maybe it's gone, and we're all okay with that.

And I don't know [00:10:00] what that is necessarily, but- Yeah ... I wish we had, like, the construct for more of that sort of stuff to exist or at least the comfort level for more of that stuff to exist in our industry as opposed to, again, Hollywood or the music industry or whatever.

So many thoughts off of that. Yes. I wholly agree. I think there's a really interesting thing where you see a lot of products that start out with- Right ... an idea of something, and they build almost the perfect version of that idea. And then through stressors and outside pressure and the need for capital and the need to grow- Correct

and stuff, they have to do, they have to one-up it. They have to do what's next, what's next, what's next. And then that's why you have a lot of these products that kinda start converging on one another. Yes. You know, every single social media app now has reels. Every single thing has now XYZ. Like, and so, I mean, I feel that at our company of trying to find, like, how do we keep the core of what made [00:11:00] us unique and special without becoming something else when, you know, the, the realities are we have a lot of employees who have families- Correct

and we need, they need paychecks. That's right. And so that is, that's the balance of that. But I'm also, I'm kinda curious because, you know, I feel like you particularly have had, whether through your own choice or not, some experiences that do feel like that moment in time, all the right ingredients came together and you, you know, it's, I'm hinting at- Right

Koala in particular, and that like this is like this- Would it be, I mean, what an interesting mix of talent and ideas and stuff that like was what it was and was great. It, it was, and it kinda gives... Y- you're right, it gets to what I'm saying here a little bit. The difference is where the challenge of something like Walla, or even taking other products that was beloved, like Path, that came [00:12:00] afterward, or, or Rdio or- Yeah

Rdio's maybe a little bit different 'cause there's music licensing involved, but let's take Path. It was a high-craft product that was built by people who really love software. And yeah, you're, you're faced with how do we make the venture economics of this work? And so to your point, that tends to converge toward this, well, we have to add reels, or we have to add all the things that make it into this, the mega super app that does everything and lives forever.

And there's that pressure there. Versus is there an economic model that allows us to say, how do we create a studio that the studio exists to continually turn out new content? And so this kinda gets to like, okay- Yeah ... to your point, well, how do you enable the continuation of jobs or for people to have work ongoing?

Maybe you have a studio that funds these things, and for this period of time, you have this group of people that work on this app, and this app exists, or this project exists for a period of time. And because the expectations are such, [00:13:00] you know, it never has to find itself in that place of like, oh, it has to add infinite new features to live.

Because there's an assumption that at some point this will run its course, it will have its final season, and something else will come along and will replace that. And I say it kind of already happens by just nature, but I feel like we'd get more satisfaction out of it if we kind of embrace that reality and maybe figure out, well, how do we, how do we build, like, a sustai- Or intentional

or an intentional- Yeah ... intentional sustainability around it. And, um, yeah, that's, it's something that I think would be... I don't know if it works in our world, but I do think that there's something that's interesting about that. The early days of the App Store- Right ... when there were these little one-off apps that were like, they were what they were, and you were never gonna, you know, the little, the beer drinking app.

Right. I was thinking about that one the other day, yeah. You know, you may have a version that's wine. Okay? But that is what it is. That's right. You're not gonna add a feature where suddenly it turn on the smoking [00:14:00] function. It's, it is what it is, and this limited thing, obviously that's a one-off purchase. I like the Mountain Dew one.

Yeah. There you go. Yeah. But I think that in- There may be more opportunity for some stuff like that on a smaller scale with this new, you know, potential way of building things. I mean, I built a website in a week, a puzzle game website that's out there and living and, like, it's, you know, it's, that's all it's gonna be.

Like, I'm not gonna- Right ... you know, unless The New York Times comes and knocks on my door. Yeah. Like, it's, it is what it is. Mm-hmm. And I had fun building it, and, like, I'm gonna keep it going, but, like, it's not costing me much- That's, that's right ... at this point. And, and- You know, it's, um, if you can take that just one more click and be like, "Okay, well, the next time I do this, I'm gonna, I'll involve these two other people that I've always wanted to work with."

Yeah. And we'll build this thing, and it'll kind of exist and, um, again, to whatever end. And I think that's where the economics are such now that maybe some of what I'm talking [00:15:00] about has a better chance at succeeding because the barrier to entry where maybe some of these things start more as side projects or, uh, whether side projects individually or side projects through a corporate entity or whatever, have a chance to succeed.

Hopefully, it allows more crossover creativity from different people working together. I mean, I hope so, too. I see it. We have our comptroller at our company built an app. Right. To help him with some stuff. Like, someone who doesn't do design, someone who doesn't do- Right ... development, and, like, is it the greatest thing in the world?

No. But it, number one, it scratched an itch for him, and number two, it was, it's kind of genuinely useful. Right. So, like, for his specific work, which is, you can't ask for more than that. That's right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting times. Again, I think that's where, you know, looking ahead, I'm generally optimistic for the tech and design community, you know, fully [00:16:00] acknowledging that, yeah, there's, there's, it's uncertain.

There's some weird uncertainty and I think some changes that are happening that are gonna be rocky, but I think on the flip side where we land up, I think there's gonna be an opportunity for some real creative, interesting things to happen, so...

We did a series about AI related stuff. The last time our team met up in person, we just had sort of like an open like, "Hey, go build something with AI tools- Mm-hmm ... and see what you learn." You know? Let's try not to be like, you know, come in with preconceived ideas or like judgments about this. Just see what happens, you know?

I didn't participate in that, in that work party, but hearing them reflect back on that was really good for me and kind of good for my soul because I tend to be on the side of like, "Well, all the jobs are disappearing. Like we're entering a dystopian future," like, like all the negative aspects of it. And I'm like, "This is just a cycle of [00:17:00] how things- Right

work," you know? Or I could say like, "Well, you know, as a creator, I had to like grind it out and figure out my craft," and like, here's some punk kid like, you know, able to do something in one day- Mm ... that took me a month, you know, and be grumpy about it. But it's like it just creates a new set of challenges and something new is gonna emerge- That's right

from this that could be pretty cool, and let's see what happens. Let's stay curious- Mm-hmm ... and see where it goes, you know? 'Cause you can't put the genie back in the bottle- No ... at this point, but maybe we can collectively, you know, make things better or find a new way forward that's really interesting. Yeah.

And I think that's the hope there. You mentioned like drawing the little icons in the notebook and everything and that was, you know, again, rewind 30 years or to our childhoods or whatever, and it was, it's like, "Oh, I want to draw a little Mario level or whatever," and that was kind of like a pencil and notebook of like you're- Mm-hmm

you're on [00:18:00] board into I can make this thing or I can imagine this thing. And kids today now, they can literally draw that picture and it's not just... In Build It- They can build that level ... they can literally build that now. And, and that's the part that I think is really- Yeah ... the difference from where we were and now where the kids are coming up at this point, and I think that that's part of the exciting part is looking ahead now.

I mean, we've had fun with it. I sat down and I got sucked in on a weekend where I was just like, this is the idea I've had forever. I've wanted to do it. And I was like, maybe I can do it now. And it like became a thing, and like it's now hosted and live. There you go. And I'm like, okay, wait, what? How did that...

It was, it's awesome. And then, and then the flip side is like how do you- You know, if one of the selling points is that this can save you time doing other things, like, I think the pitfall is that, or, well, you know, what we're experiencing a little bit is if you now have more free time, you're just doing more.

That's right. And so there's this co- Mm ... compounding. And how do we let that actually save us time while giving us breathing room to [00:19:00] focus on something else or to not grind harder- That's correct ... because we can? And it also creates new challenges and, like, bottlenecks too. That was an interesting thing that came out of that conversation is, like, Dave's point was if you're using this well and purposefully, it's gonna highlight what you do well already and kind of give you a turbo pack for that.

Mm-hmm. And the new challenge is, I think one of the things that you had said, Jory, is like, well, you can't really account for, like, there's a thing such as taste, you know? And then you have to have discernment on what's the right thing- Yeah ... to work on, because we can do almost anything. So that's the new bottleneck- Yeah

of like what do you say no to? How do you edit? So you have to learn to flex. Yeah. You have to learn how to flex that muscle better because it's just like you don't wanna just create a bunch of slop. I mean, everybody's doing that. Now it's like how can we be discerning about what the important thing is?

I'm finding that, like, we're building these features quicker than we could before- Mm-hmm ... and these things we've needed, [00:20:00] but it gets to the point where we're like, "Well, we could just add this on to it now." Right. Right. "Oh, and this would be helpful-" Right ... "and we could do this. Oh, and we can keep going." And you're like, "No, no, no.

We gotta, we gotta stop. Let's get this out there and like, you know, see how it works and then iterate." But it's so, you know, when it's just typing in a prompt or asking some questions, it is so kind of tough to, to self-edit then. Right. And especially when you've got, you know... When I use, like, Claude and stuff, I have all the re- things like, you know, don't- Yeah

don't be obsequious, don't, like, blow smoke up my ass. Don't, like, you know. 'Cause there is a real human response to being told what- Mm-hmm ... you're doing is good, whether it's coming from a machine- Yes ... or not. Right. It's like, oh- If someone's like, "Oh, that's a great idea. You're good to..." You're like, "Oh, is it?

Thank you, but what?" Can I make you a sandwich? Would you like a back rub? Yeah. So- Your ideas are so great.

Something that's fascinating to me now that I don't know the answer to, like the last question that you wrote down, like what would you tell somebody just getting into icon [00:21:00] design today? And that, that is like a really hard question. Josh? What? Josh, what would you tell someone getting into icon design today?

Thanks. Appreciate that. Yeah, I was reading that script here. We'll, we'll cut that one in. Um... Yeah. I mean, I think this is where there is so much opportunity to, like, not limit yourself and let it all hang out there, and we did. Like, sometimes you're, you know, whether it's iOS 7 trash can icons or, or whatever, you're, you are often limited by like the tools.

Like then it was like, okay, it was a 16 by... or 32 by 32 pixel grid and however many colors. Uh, and now it's okay, we're- you're building this with Figma and components. What's the next thing? Like, what are, you know, what's the next sort of canvas that somebody's gonna use to, you know, create icons that, that have a [00:22:00] thread, you know, a common thread drawn through them?

And I don't know what that is, and I think that's where it'd be interesting to see, you know, yeah, don't limit yourself and, you know, see what comes out of that from a creativity, you know, standpoint. And like clearly when you're early and you're getting started, there's a lot of looking at what others have done and kind of mimicking that and learning from that.

But on the flip side, it feels like we're at that place where it's like we've kind of reached the maximum that we're going to out of our current set of tools and processes, and there's a chance to like bust through and see a different sort of creativity, use for icons, a need for them. So I think that's where I'm, I think there's an opportunity to be inspired by something completely out of the box at this point.

Yeah. I mean, I think there's something beautiful about being, when you're new to an industry or you're new to something and you're young, where there's a freedom in not knowing the- Correct ... quote, unquote, "rules." 'Cause, you know, and even if rules are made to be broken, I just, we have so much institutional knowledge that sometimes it's hard for me- To [00:23:00] break out of that

to like break out of that. Mm-hmm. Like if you don't know those constraints, who knows? Yeah. It's exciting. But it's really cool to see what can emerge too from people who they don't understand the rules yet, and then you create happy mistakes. That's right. It's like, "Oh, interesting." Yeah, you realize like this is a completely- You know?

different way to think about this. And yeah, there's just so much inspiring work out there right now, and I think that seeing it repackaged for like a small iconic sort of format is, you know, it'll be fun to see what comes next.

Well now see I'm kind of, I'm, I'm looking at this, the mosaic pack that you made for us and I'm like, oh, I don't know how much you varied from the rules you created for the uni calendar but It'd be fun to have those icons in there too Yeah. Like, there were some differences. There's a lot of similarities, but I definitely know, like, the grid's a little different.

Yeah. But yeah, there's similar roots for sure. So- Yeah ... you know, I, I, again, no, no announcements [00:24:00] because I gotta figure out how this year's is gonna come about. But yeah, I'd love... One of the fun things about the Uni calendar was the stickers, and you get these stickers and you can put them on the dates that are important to you.

Um, and I kinda wonder, like, is there a way that you can let somebody, like, fully make their calendar from scratch, and just like, "I'm gonna go to a site or tool," and say, "Hey, I wanna, like, here's my calendar. Here's my important dates." And, and then have it- Mm-hmm ... custom made. Like, that could be really, really interesting, and give somebody hundreds of icons to choose from and put this thing together.

So maybe something like that becomes- Yeah ... the next iteration of what the calendar was, is. We'll see. We'll see. And hey, and maybe they could pick from the different icon style too. Right. There you go. So, you know. Nice. Well, I'm looking forward to it, and your work is such an inspiration, and like I said, I did literally was copying things of yours in the early days there.

So, you know, I think probably some of my career can be attributed to- [00:25:00] Oh ... following in your footsteps. Thank you. I'm flattered. And, like, clearly I'm returning the favor now. Like, I, I'm such a big fan of Font Awesome and all that y'all have done, so that's a great chance to work together. Yeah, definitely.

We'll do it again. For sure. We will do it again. For sure. Thank you, Josh, for your time. This has been really fun. If folks are curious about what you're up to and wanna check out your work, obviously they can check out the icon pack. But where would you send folks online to you? The, the, the most stable place to find me is still my initials JW, either on Threads, less so on the site formerly known as Twitter, but I'm, peek over there, and then Instagram as well.

And so I, I'm joining that team again, and hopefully we're gonna be building some cool new things. And so Instagram or Threads @JW seem like a reasonable place to keep tabs on whatever we do next. Awesome. Thank you. Sweet. Well, we're looking forward to what comes next for you, and congrats on the new gig.

And yeah, man, we just really appreciate your time. It's [00:26:00] been a fun conversation. Yeah, thanks so much. Good to see y'all. Thanks again, Josh, for sticking around for this round two of our podcast, and you can find him on Threads and Instagram @JW. And go follow along as he gets started at Instagram's labs team.

And if you haven't checked out the Mosaic icon pack yet, you can head over to fontawesome.com/icons to see them there. And as usual, Podcast Awesome was produced and edited by this guy right here, Matt Johnson. The Podcast Awesome theme song was composed by Ronnie Martin. The music interstitials were composed by Zach Malm.

And we get video editing help from Isaac Chase. And now you know what to do. Font Awesome